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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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 Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: Natural Weirdness: The Heikegani Crab of Japan. |
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Here's a link to a segment of that Cosmos TV show. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiNKt6gcEM8
The host, Carl Sagan, tells the amazing story of why crabs in a bay in Japan look like this.....
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, but are they delicious? |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| What an absolutely idiotic conclusion. The story however, is interesting. The site of this legend isn't too far from Fukuoka. Actually, it's near Shiminoseki in Yamaguchi Prefecture and Moji (ko) in Fukuoka Prefecture. Many battles took place on ships with samurai moving between vessels like in the swashbuckling movies of recent. Many of the samurai would grasp their opponent and jump into the sea, committing suicide and taking with him, his enemy. But, like I stated, his conclusion is absolutely insane! |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Yes, but are they delicious? |
Too small to eat apparently. Another reason for their survival. But do you believe they evolved that shell based on a human story about samurai? |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| What an absolutely idiotic conclusion. |
No it's not. It's a perfect explanation of how evolution actually works. The face was a random change that proved to be something that enabled the species to stay alive.
He couldn't have known for sure, but his explanation was far more plausible and in keeping with what we know, than a supernatural one. |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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i-d-i-o-t-i-c
What? Are they passing notes to one another on the seafloor? The ones who are eaten aren't saying anything.
Not to mention, but doesn't his conclusion presuppose that the crabs would have to know what an angry samurai looks like in order to evolve into that form so as to deter people from eating them. Not only that, but wouldn't the crabs have to have knowledge of the lore to begin with? |
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browneyedgirl
Joined: 17 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Natural Weirdness: The Heikegani Crab of Japan. |
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Hmm...I wonder why deer don't have an ominous pattern on their backs...following that line of logic. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
i-d-i-o-t-i-c
What? Are they passing notes to one another on the seafloor? The ones who are eaten aren't saying anything.
Not to mention, but doesn't his conclusion presuppose that the crabs would have to know what an angry samurai looks like in order to evolve into that form so as to deter people from eating them. Not only that, but wouldn't the crabs have to have knowledge of the lore to begin with? |
Yes. They are passing notes to each other. Genetic notes. Of course, the crabs have no knowledge of anything. Just that crabs with that pattern on their back survive more often. Natural selection works that way. It's why giraffes have long necks. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
i-d-i-o-t-i-c
What? Are they passing notes to one another on the seafloor? The ones who are eaten aren't saying anything.
Not to mention, but doesn't his conclusion presuppose that the crabs would have to know what an angry samurai looks like in order to evolve into that form so as to deter people from eating them. Not only that, but wouldn't the crabs have to have knowledge of the lore to begin with? |
*blink* That's called a strawman argument. There are other known mechanisms by which this can happen.
Lots of crab species are getting smaller. Why? Because humans toss back smaller crabs under the belief they're not mature. Adult crabs that never got bigger than immature crab size survive to pass on their genes producing many more smaller sized crabs. The crabs themselves don't have to have a knowledge of fishery laws. They are simply selected for survival based on X trait. In the case of the crab above, people likely threw back any crab that seemed to have anything that resembled a human face.
How do you think we got poodles from wolves or giant breasted turkeys that can no longer fly? Do african cows have to know they're not turned into food if they grow really long horns and can live another day as part of a bride price? Gosh, cows now need to know human marriage customs! Nooooooooo!
People keep selecting the animal for a certain trait. While these are also conscious selections there are many unconscious selections within cat/dog selection. Dogs are great suck up machines. You'll notice wolves aren't. Dogs with better suck up dispositions tend to be bred. Dogs with poor suck up dispositions or a wolf like disposition to feed on your child when you're off hunting tend not to get bred.
There's a well known effect called pareidolia where our brains are hard wired to find human faces in things. Like a face on your shell, it also conferred a survival advantage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
So people aware of the legend stop eating crabs with any human like features. Pretty soon all the crabs have human like features. Then they stop eating crabs with human + remotely samurai looking features.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| cangel wrote: |
i-d-i-o-t-i-c
What? Are they passing notes to one another on the seafloor? The ones who are eaten aren't saying anything.
Not to mention, but doesn't his conclusion presuppose that the crabs would have to know what an angry samurai looks like in order to evolve into that form so as to deter people from eating them. Not only that, but wouldn't the crabs have to have knowledge of the lore to begin with? |
*blink* That's called a strawman argument. There are other known mechanisms by which this can happen.
Lots of crab species are getting smaller. Why? Because humans toss back smaller crabs under the belief they're not mature. Adult crabs that never got bigger than immature crab size survive to pass on their genes producing many more smaller sized crabs. The crabs themselves don't have to have a knowledge of fishery laws. They are simply selected for survival based on X trait. In the case of the crab above, people likely threw back any crab that seemed to have anything that resembled a human face.
How do you think we got poodles from wolves or giant breasted turkeys that can no longer fly? People keep selecting the animal for a certain trait. While these are also conscious selections there are many unconscious selections within cat/dog selection. Dogs are great suck up machines. You'll notice wolves aren't. Dogs with better suck up dispositions tend to bred. Dogs with poor suck up dispositions or a wolf like disposition to feed on your child when you're off hunting tend not to get bred.
There's a well known effect called pareidolia where our brains are hard wired to find human faces in things. Like a face on your shell, it also conferred a survival advantage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
So people aware of the legend stop eating crabs with any human like features. Pretty soon all the crabs have human like features. Then they stop eating crabs with human + remotely samurai looking features. |
It's scary you had to explain that. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| It's scary you had to explain that. |
I was thinking much the same thing. I understand many American high schools don't teach evolution these days but after a university education, one should have at least encountered something or another about evolution or at least notions of breeding. Ah when you live a life of zero curiosity, you end up looking vastly stupid. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I was going to leave a hilarious joke about how this is proof of Intelligent Design, but seeing that others have beaten me to it, I'm now worried about the future of humanity. If you really believe evolution is a lie, go jump off the edge of the world. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| If you really believe evolution is a lie, go jump off the edge of the world. |
That is one of the funniest things I have read in awhile  |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for identifying the strawman argument and describing the basic theory of evolution of species. Oh, and your little attack on the American educational system was much appreciated. Gracias amigo. It's still idiotic and makes no sense.
That being said, it's just bad science. Check out this article by Joel Martin, a crustacean evolutionary biologist.
http://crustacea.nhm.org/people/martin/publications/pdf/103.pdf |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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The science makes sense.
It's the principle reason that domestic vegetables and fruits are much larger, brighter, and juicier than their wild counterparts.
But I'm not convinced on the rationality of it alone. How many of the heikea crabs actually look like samurai? Have humans actually come into contact with enough heike crabs and further more, thrown them back in the sea to seriously select the heike-face characteristic as a dominant one? |
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