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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: How to truly devastate Al Qaeda |
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Take a look at this article from CNN about that little boy who was doused in gasoline and set on fire in Iraq. Take a good look at the response that the story generated a little down the page.
Stop wasting billions and billions of dollars on military expenditure in Iraq and spend it on acts of kindness like this. Let the Iraqi's read of thousands and thousands of true acts of kindness which Americans are capable of. Divert 10% of the war budget and just imagine how much real damage America could do to Al Qaeda.
A truly heartbreaking and,finally, faith restoring story. I wish there were more of them.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/23/iraq.boyfolo/index.html |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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The US has already spent alot on humanitarian projects.
It is not poverty . It is a desire to regain the calipahate and to destroy other religons that motives Al Qaeda.. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| OP presupposes al Qaeda is reasonable. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Would you agree or disagree? America is fairing pathetically in the battle to win the hearts and minds of Arabs/Muslims.
I don't understand why we are spending so many billions fighting an enemy that will never be crushed militarily, when the moral victory is so easy. I wonder why we are willing to lose/take lives, spend billions of dollars in wealth and treasure just because of antiquated beliefs that have been proven time and again to fail against terrorism and insurgency. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="yawarakaijin"]W
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ould you agree or disagree? America is fairing pathetically in the battle to win the hearts and minds of Arabs/Muslims.
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I would agree except for the Kurds. That is cause the mideast regimes control what their people hear and see.
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I don't understand why we are spending so many billions fighting an enemy that will never be crushed militarily, when the moral victory is so easy |
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Moral victory?
Mideast regimes have been very sucessful destroying groups that oppose them.
Algeria' govt won its civil war.
Syria destroyed the muslim brotherhood
Egypt destroyed Al-Gama'a_al-Islamiyya
Saddam clobbered the Kurds and the Shias at the same time even after getting punched out after the gulf war.
Even Saudi Arabia wiped out jihadists who tried to attack the oil industry in their nation
IF that is so then AQ can be destroyed.
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I wonder why we are willing to lose/take lives, spend billions of dollars in wealth and treasure just because of antiquated beliefs that have been proven time and again to fail against terrorism and insurgency. |
See mideast regimes. They have an excellent track record.
Also targeted assassinations by Israel destroyed much of the miltary capablity of Islamic Jihad and Hamas. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Would you agree or disagree? |
Not so simple. (a) American policy in the Middle East is not working. Sculpting in SillyPutty comes to mind -- as far as Western-style nation-building goes, at least. And (b) al Qaeda is not reasonable and would not respond favorably to anything less than totally achieving its Fundamentalist objectives. Groups like the Taliban, to cite another example, have already demonstrated harsh ethnocentrism and an utter unwillingness to reason in the Buddhist statues issue (2001).
In any case, both (a) and (b) are true.
Likely, any change in policy along the lines you suggest would only signal weakness to them and encourage them to press and indeed increase their attack. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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So your tactic to defeat Islamic terrorists is to suppourt regimes like Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Saddam Hussein? Some F-ed up logic there Joo.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Iraq was the only secular state in the region. I seem to remember reading that prior to the Iraq invasion no Iraqi had ever killed an American overseas. I seem to remember reading that Saddam had a particular dislike for Osama. I seem to remember Iraq had the highest literacy rate of all Arab regimes. So we decide to take Saddam out?
Doesn't suppourt your argument, does it?
Perhaps if we hadn't supported these repressive regimes for our own immediate benefit we wouldn't be dealing with the problem we are today. Terrorism and insurgency doesn't just sprout out of the ground from nowhere. There are reasons. But let's not pay attention to any of those painful truths. Let's bomb, bomb, bomb.
I'm no pacifist. I want us to win. We aren't. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="yawarakaijin"]
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| So your tactic to defeat Islamic terrorists is to suppourt regimes like Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Saddam Hussein? Some F-ed up logic there Joo. |
Not support them force them to get rid of the terrorists. Not support them - scare them.
If the US could make a better mideast with Iraq as a model then that would be good too.
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that Iraq was the only secular state in the region. I seem to remember reading that prior to the Iraq invasion no Iraqi had ever killed an American overseas. I seem to remember reading that Saddam had a particular dislike for Osama. I seem to remember Iraq had the highest literacy rate of all Arab regimes. So we decide to take Saddam out?
Doesn't suppourt your argument, does it? |
Saddam and Bin Laden hated the US more than they hated each other.
Saddam still shot at US planes , he still tried to kill a US president. He supported terrorists not AQ, not much anyway but nevertheless his regime did support terror.
The US could not contain Saddam. If Saddam were not contained he would kill the Kurds , build WMDs and invade Kuwait again. It is not like he wouldn't have.
and remember that the UN was on Saddam's payroll.
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Perhaps if we hadn't supported these repressive regimes for our own immediate benefit we wouldn't be dealing with the problem we are today. Terrorism and insurgency doesn't just sprout out of the ground from nowhere. There are reasons. But let's not pay attention to any of those painful truths. Let's bomb, bomb, bomb. |
Almost all mideat regimes are repressive. The US supports some and the US is no friend of the others.
The biggest cause of terror is that mideast regimes and elites encourage it.
Notice that no one in the mideast got mad when Saddam gassed Kurds. what relgion are they? No one got made when Khomeni killed 30,000 with his Fatwa in 1988. No one got mad when Haffaz Assad destroyed the city of Hama killing 20,000 in less than two weeks.
No one got upset when Bin Laden and Al Qaeda killed muslims in Afghanistan either. What religion was the Northern alliance.
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| I'm no pacifist. I want us to win. We aren't. |
You make good points but the US didn't have a lot of other options.
On the other hand Saddam is dead.
Khaddafy is down
. Al Qaeda hasn't overthrown any regimes .
They are not in power in Afghanistan.
And in fact AQ is now being kicked out of Iraq by those who once were enemies of the US.
AQ hasn't done very well either. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| I want us to win. We aren't. |
Right now, whether everyone is openly admitting it or not, the issue is simply this: how can we extract ourselves from this, protect our own immediate security interests, and do it all in a way that Tehran does not rapidly increase its sphere-of-influence or something equally bad when we leave.
"Let's-be-nice-to-them-and-then-they-will-be-nice-to-us" is just as puerile, just as hopelessly quixotic as "Let's-create-a-democratic-dynasty-in-the-Middle-East" was.
And on "the regimes" you bring up: we deal with world affairs as we find them. Sometimes we try, with varying degrees of success and/or failure, to influence them in our favor, which is neither without self-interest nor without liberal-democratic qualities that many find beneficial. But, in any case, mostly we work with it "as is." And nice guys in Middle-Eastern power structures are few and far between.
The best way to devastate al Qaeda, then, remains killing al Qaeda round-the-clock, whereever it rears its head -- and doing so, to steal from a ficticious, movie phrase, "with extreme prejudice." |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Just for the record. In no way do I believe that "being nice to Al Qaeda" is an option. I do believe in promoting the ideals of justice, freedom and democracy to undercut Al Qaeda recruitment. If we truly treated the Iraqi people with the respect all human beings deserve, I doubt they would seriously have any qualms with us with lopping (sp?) off the head of the snake.
Face it. We have caused Iraqi's great suffering. Whether or not it "will have been worth it in the long run" is a moot point for those suffering there now. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
Just for the record. In no way do I believe that "being nice to Al Qaeda" is an option. I do believe in promoting the ideals of justice, freedom and democracy to undercut Al Qaeda recruitment. If we truly treated the Iraqi people with the respect all human beings deserve, I doubt they would seriously have any qualms with us with lopping (sp?) off the head of the snake.
Face it. We have caused Iraqi's great suffering. Whether or not it "will have been worth it in the long run" is a moot point for those suffering there now. |
The US acts better than most during war.
Iraq is 60% Shia , 20% Kurd and 20% Muslim.
I wonder do you think the Kurds and the Shias are sorry the US took down Saddam?
The US also saved alot of Iraqi Kurds from Saddam. and in fact many Sunnis are siding with the US now against AQ. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Face it. We have caused... |
U.S.-centric. We have, of course, certainly played our part in the way things have unfolded there in recent history. So has Tel Aviv, for that matter. But you go too far here.
And you fail to acknowledge that your "head-of-the-snake" is actually a hydra-head that will almost certainly continue to grow out of the general population in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia, to name but three.
And let us not forget the supporting, enabling role extremist govts and proxies like Tehran, Damascus, Hezbollah, and others play in stirring up this hornets' nest, too.
You cannot simply reduce today's turmoil in the Middle East a la Chalmers Johnson or Ron Paul to "look what we have done to them." Not only inaccurate. Also childish and, like most innocent children who understand little when it comes to imperfections in human relations, purist, too. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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How to win the hearts and minds of male Muslims.
One: Grasp them firmly by the *beep*
Squeeze very hard.
Lead on, their hearts and mind will follow.
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