Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Bingo]

I have been in Korea several years. There are things about Korea / Koreans that I like. And there are things that annoy me to no end. The one that consistently irritates me is the lying. It seems that with every job I've had here I've been lied to, misled or provided with seriously ambiguous information. It has usually had to do with money. I'm at the end of my GEPIK contract and the school is not honouring their word about airfare. They said they would give me the cash in lieu of a ticket. Expecting the cash I made a large purchase recently. Now they've informed me that 'no' I won't get the cash. This is only one of a dozen experiences where I've encountered Korean lying and / or irresponsibility with regard to my financial welfare.

It seems that lying and misleading is not considered shameful in this culture. Is it a confucianist thing? Could it be that providing a person with straightforward, honest information 'empowers' that person to the 'detriment' of the person offering that information? Offering vague and misleading information keeps 'inferiors' on their toes and strengthens the status of the person witholding the information. I've often wondered about this, because I've never encountered so much dishonesty and, well, lying in my life.

Any alternative theories?

[Paji eh Wong]

Yeah, it is annoying.

I think it has to do with cultural views of the truth. Asian cultures tend to believe that the truth is subjective and socially created. European cultures tend to believe that the truth is objective and independent from us. When you boss says "I will pay your cash in lieu of airfare" he isn't saying "I will pay you cash instead of airfare", he's saying I will tell you what you want to hear in order to keep harmony. Our ideas about good communication and their ideas about good communication are mutually exclusive.

Don't give up on getting the cash. He may just be opening negotiations...

[Bear256]

I believe it is something taught in the culture here from a very young age. I teach in an elementary school and whenever we do workbook pages all the students copy the answer from the smartest student and are angry when I don't acknowledge their work as being every bit as good as the original student's work. Cheating and doing the work honestly are of equal value in their eyes. They were just 'smart' enough to figure a way that took little to no thinking or learning on their part. Is it any wonder that these students grow up to be adults that think cheating on taxes, cheating their workers or the society in general is just being a smart and crafty businessperson.

[PeterDragon]

In Confucian culture, saving face is the highest on the hierarchy of values. This makes a host of lies acceptable--- Koreans who dislike you will pretend to like you for years, indefinitely if need be. Even if the reasons they dislike you are minor and they could probably get you to change, they'll still remain silent.

Koreans will also tell you what they need to tell you to give the best impression of them. If adding a few lies to the truth means the difference between being a good employer or the BEST employer (best until the lies unravel, that is), they'll do it.

The concept of saving face is also the reason that it's very easy to sue/get sued for libel.... and very difficult, compared to the West, to successfully sue for liability.

It annoys the piss out of me. But then, to a Confucian, I'm sure Western honesty seems disruptive, rude and cruel.

We Westerners are in the right, of course.

[Juregen]

I think Koreans are bad liars.

[Homer]

[PeterDragon]

Homer--- you're absolutely right. Having said that, while I am learning to modify my behavior and learning not to take the non-Western way that I'm being treated personally, I just can't get used to being on the receiving end of the Confucian approach. I am EXTREMELY uncomfortable around Koreans, because I have no idea who's actually my friend and who's not, and I have no idea whether I'm screwing up on the job or excelling.

Is there any way to decipher the Confucian smokescreens and know what's really going on? I'd like to be more comfortable around Koreans, but my entire compass on how to make friends, how to be sensitive to the needs of others, and how to know who to trust doesn't exist here.

[Dev]

[inkoreaforgood]

[LUCRETIA]

I agree with most of whats been posted, but...

Pretending to like someone when you dont, avoiding conflict, "saving face" etc. are clearly all cultural markers that people are suggesting westerners be sensitive to, but saying one thing and doing another seems to me a different story.

The OP spent a large amount of money believing he would be reimbursed, and is now screwed because his boss has not kept his word. I dont believe you can just say "well that's Korea", bring up Confucious and then carry on. The guy signed a contract, came here in good faith and is now suffering the consequences of a boss who is more lazy/greedy than he is insensitive to foreigners.

I've humoured a lot of Korean behaviour that seems strange to me, but lying and being dishonest hurts other people and is disrespectful.
Maybe this is inflexible and a useless position, but I dont know...

[Dev]

Wouldn't the habit of lying betray the trust in a marriage between you and a Korean?

I wouldn't feel confortable with that either.

[Bagpipes11]

The way to answer a conflict with an employer is a complicated manner. First of all, Koreans must save face above all. So, if I have a problem with an employer...I will never confront them in front of a group of fellow employees. It is better to request a private meeting.

I have always gotten the best results if I was polite and firm in those meetings. One of my better Korean friends told me that Koreans don't argue with facts the same way that Westerners do. They argue with feelings in lieu of facts.

At first it is a little hard to understand but what I mean is, if you went into your boss's office and said, "I felt disappointed when I didn't get my airfare. I have always thought of you as a wonderful boss. Is there something we can work out?" would work better than, "Give me my money because you promised!!"

If all that doesn't work, do what my friend did. When his employer didn't pay him....he proceeded to unplug his boss's computer and told his boss that if he didn't get paid then he was leaving with the computer. He got paid.

[pest2]

Saving face is definitely the reason the lying seems so common. The notion of "face" is alot stronger in Korea because its the grapes of good, utilitarian relationships. Utilitarian relationships are almost the exclusive way people in Korea get what they need... They dont rely on explicit rules or laws, they rely on their own reputations.

What we should also mention is that the whole thing about "face" is really just about not being shamed. Whereas we in the west come from slightly more developed societies in which we are subjectively guided by guilt, Koreans are guided by shame.

In the west, if I commit a crime and people find out, I have guilt

In the west, if I commit a crime and no people find out, I have guilt

In Korea, if I commit a crime and people find out, I have shame

In Korea, if I commit a crime and no people find out, I have NO shame; its as if it never happened.

Now.. here's the real clincher: In Korea it is possible that I never committed a crime but everyone believes I committed it. The effect? I HAVE SHAME. And that shame isn't just limited to what others believe about me. It includes what I believe about myself.

Interestingly, these 2 systems of psycho-ethic correspond to 2 different levels of moral reasoning.. obviously shame exists at a lower level at which people are only concerned about what others think rather than internal reasons for good behavior.

Korean culture just hasnt evolved to a higher level yet. Give it time.

As for what Homer said about understanding = accepting...

Well, I feel that I understand it well enough, but I am pretty sure its wrong and there are many better ways to be.

Sometimes understanding also gives you good insight about good and bad quality... and the causes of lying in Korea come from bad quality.

[PeterDragon]

I laughed out loud at that last paragraph. When all else fails, Koreans tend to fold if you simply act convincingly crazy.

The one trick I've found is that when I *suspect* a Korean is lying to me, I gently ask them the same question a few days later, as if they'd never told me the lie to begin with. The response is usually "let me check" or "I will ask the principal", and then I get the real answer.

I think some of the things Koreans say aren't lies in their minds--- when they say they'll have something done in "a few hours", they don't *always* know for a fact that it will take longer. In their haste to save face, they give the estimate that makes them seem most competent in the moment.

Having said that, if I choose to do another contract here, I am DEFINITELY calling them on their bullshit if they say it takes a day to get me nice and legal, and that I should quit my job and abandon my apartment on THEIR perceived time table.

[djsmnc]