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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:26 am Post subject: |
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I've read/seen reports on this recently. upwards of 40k mercenaries (guess we can't call them insurgents...) on the ground in Iraq. That's in addition to the 150,000 or so that were there "officially." So... with almost 200,000 on the ground, it wasn't enough.
Hmmm...
And they aren't included in death tolls, either. So, while people discuss the death tolls... 3200 or so... they are, yet again, being lied to: 800 or so mercenaries have also died. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:46 am Post subject: |
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I do not have an ideological opposition to using mercenaries. I honestly don't see the difference... I do not believe that "serving your country" is a more moral reason to kill than "providing for your family". Of course, in self-defence it is different.
What I do dislike is how disproportionately paid the Blackwater dudes are in comparison to the actual GI Joe. And the whole privatization of this war is creepy. The whole war is creepy. 100$ for laundry, 40$ for a sixer of coke. 100k for a truck worth 40. The democrats had better be prepared for some profiteering hearings.
I actually know several people who work for firms like Blackwater in SE Asia. They drink where I drink. They do all sorts of security work in the straits and the region more generally. All, are former soldiers from the USA. All have big money to spend as well. |
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
Hmmm...
And they aren't included in death tolls, either. |
Nor are they included in the Geneva conventions. They're whole legal status is murky (hence the overuse in areas like Fallujah) |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: |
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The Geneva Convention does not apply. And that is EXACTLY why Rumsfeld wanted to privatize the armed forces.
However, it's not murky to me: you are in a foreign country killing people and you are not a soldier? You're a murderer. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
The Geneva Convention does not apply. And that is EXACTLY why Rumsfeld wanted to privatize the armed forces.
However, it's not murky to me: you are in a foreign country killing people and you are not a soldier? You're a murderer. |
Well let me ask you. If one goes to a foreign country and they kill Al Qaeda members or those who support Al Qaeda they are murderer?
The same question if anyone kills a Bathist or a Khomeni follower.
Killing Bathists, Al Qaedists or Khomeni supporters prevents them from killing others. And kill others is what they do if they are left alone. |
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mnhnhyouh
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Well let me ask you. If one goes to a foreign country and they kill Al Qaeda members or those who support Al Qaeda they are murderer?
The same question if anyone kills a Bathist or a Khomeni follower.
Killing Bathists, Al Qaedists or Khomeni supporters prevents them from killing others. And kill others is what they do if they are left alone. |
Yes. Killing to prevent killing is not a legal defence against murder.
Outsourcing the fighting should not allow outsourcing of the responsibility either, but it does seem to be doing so at the moment.
Soldiers can still be charged with murder, though they often are not, when they should be.
h |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mnhnhyouh wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Well let me ask you. If one goes to a foreign country and they kill Al Qaeda members or those who support Al Qaeda they are murderer?
The same question if anyone kills a Bathist or a Khomeni follower.
Killing Bathists, Al Qaedists or Khomeni supporters prevents them from killing others. And kill others is what they do if they are left alone. |
Yes. Killing to prevent killing is not a legal defence against murder.
Outsourcing the fighting should not allow outsourcing of the responsibility either, but it does seem to be doing so at the moment.
Soldiers can still be charged with murder, though they often are not, when they should be.
h |
We then if the US had killed Bin Laden before he got to Afghanistan then the US would be guilty of murder. Would have saved a lot of lives too.
IF the US had killed Khomeni before he got to Iran then the US would have be guilty of murder. Same as above.
But since Bathists, Khomeni supporters and Al Qadists have been after the US for a long time I would say that when they are killed it is self defense. It is not like they are capable of being nice.
Until they give up their war anything the US does against them is ok. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure exactly why so many mercenaries were sent there. We do know, however, the death toll for Americans surpasses 4,000 including the ex-soldiers. Not to mention the 10,000 or so wounded. It seems the wounded are not really talked about adequately.
Back to the mercenaries, the government wanted to make up for the lack of troops. The problem with that is that these mercenaries are not directly under the pay of Uncle Sam. So that does pose a problem. They are, of course, suppose to contribute to the security situation in Iraq. The mercenaries, I don't blame them, for earning that kind of money. People want to buy houses, retire doing something they used to get little money for in the past.
What really irks me is the 100s of billions spent on Iraq, Halliburton's fleecing the tax payers and the police powers back in the U.S. have grown more and more. These things need to be rolled back.
As far as the Geneva Convention, I am not sure how that applies to mercenaries. I mean in terms of warcrimes against the Iraqis.
They certainly can get prosecuted in the U.S. I am not accusing, by any means, most mercenaries of doing bad things or what have you anymore than a translator. They are doing a job. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
The Geneva Convention does not apply. And that is EXACTLY why Rumsfeld wanted to privatize the armed forces.
However, it's not murky to me: you are in a foreign country killing people and you are not a soldier? You're a murderer. |
Well let me ask you. If one goes to a foreign country and they kill Al Qaeda members or those who support Al Qaeda they are murderer?
The same question if anyone kills a Bathist or a Khomeni follower.
Killing Bathists, Al Qaedists or Khomeni supporters prevents them from killing others. And kill others is what they do if they are left alone. |
I assumed they were being used as private security. Being paid to level a gun at someone about to kill you or the person you're hired to protect doesn't make you a murder. Why have US soldiers guard things when you can use them to do what they're trained to do, attack the enemy.
Their use I think is highly problematic. Who is responsible if they commit atrocities? However it's utterly simplistic, as EFL contends, to simply write them off as murderers. Indeed, without them, who is at risk? I guess EFL would be content to wave them out of the country with his hand, being safely ensconced in Korea 'n' all. I'm always highly skeptical of anyone who deems to play arm chair general without having served in the military. I've brought this up with you, Joo Rip, and while I certainly don't agree with much of what you say on the matter of Iraq, I do respect that you made an honest attempt to put your blood and treasure where your mouth is and serve in the armed forces. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
The Geneva Convention does not apply. And that is EXACTLY why Rumsfeld wanted to privatize the armed forces.
However, it's not murky to me: you are in a foreign country killing people and you are not a soldier? You're a murderer. |
Well let me ask you. If one goes to a foreign country and they kill Al Qaeda members or those who support Al Qaeda they are murderer?
The same question if anyone kills a Bathist or a Khomeni follower.
Killing Bathists, Al Qaedists or Khomeni supporters prevents them from killing others. And kill others is what they do if they are left alone. |
I assumed they were being used as private security. Being paid to level a gun at someone about to kill you or the person you're hired to protect doesn't make you a murder. Why have US soldiers guard things when you can use them to do what they're trained to do, attack the enemy.
Their use I think is highly problematic. Who is responsible if they commit atrocities? However it's utterly simplistic, as EFL contends, to simply write them off as murderers. Indeed, without them, who is at risk? I guess EFL would be content to wave them out of the country with his hand, being safely ensconced in Korea 'n' all. I'm always highly skeptical of anyone who deems to play arm chair general without having served in the military. I've brought this up with you, Joo Rip, and while I certainly don't agree with much of what you say on the matter of Iraq, I do respect that you made an honest attempt to put your blood and treasure where your mouth is and serve in the armed forces. |
You have become a real idiot. Go ahead, keep stalking my posts. I'm happy to make you look like an idiot over and over. Again, can't level a decent, logical argument? Make it about the poster. Straw man.
Now, dumbfuck: show us where I said all mercenaries are murderers? Show me where I said self-defense was murder?
Jesus, I have grown to hate scumbag, lying, small-minded little pricks.
That all said: if you are in a war zone protecting people engaged in that war and are a private citizen acting in a defensive posture for any of those involved in prosecuting the war and you kill, you are, indeed, committing murder. You have no business being there. You have no standing under the terms of war. You are acting as a private citizen, killing solely for money.
Now, if they are protecting private citizens not engaged in prosecuting the war, they can simply be said to be acting in self-defense of themselves or their charges.
WTF lie, punk? It's such a pointless thing to do. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
You have become a real idiot. Go ahead, keep stalking my posts. I'm happy to make you look like an idiot over and over. Again, can't level a decent, logical argument? Make it about the poster. Straw man.
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A straw man is not about the poster. The would be either an ad hominem or a "poisoning the well" fallacy. Anyway, one only has to look at your gopher/scrotum sig line to see your policy on such debating tactics.
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| Now, dumbfuck: show us where I said all mercenaries are murderers? |
You stated:
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| However, it's not murky to me: you are in a foreign country killing people and you are not a soldier? You're a murderer. |
I commented:
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| Being paid to level a gun at someone about to kill you or the person you're hired to protect doesn't make you a murder... However it's utterly simplistic, as EFL contends, to simply write them off as murderers. |
I'm not talking about all mercenaries. I'm talking about the ones being employed in Iraq, the ones you seem to be suggesting are murderers.
Now, go ahead, claim you've addressed this in some other post... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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I think the level of civility in this forum is really going down the drain. It seems like some people's "mouths" are like sphincters emitting foul verbiage.
As far as the mercenaries, it reminds me of the Byzantine Empire before it fell. The Empire relied heavily on mercenaries. You may argue so did the British Empire when the Canadians and Australians went into battle, but they weren't mercenaries, they were loyal subjects. Yes, these mercenaries in Iraq are mostly American citizens with many exceptions, but if the main army needs to many mercenaries, because there aren't enough people on the ground, it is worrisome.
The so-called surge is too little too late it seems to many out there. I think a large invasion force of Iraq would have made sense. These mercenaries are mostly like security guards helping businesses secure various premises from attack. So, they are performing a service in a volatile, chaotic country. Have some of the committed abuses and atrocities. I don't doubt it, but to point all of them in a negative light would be highly unfair. It takes a lot of guts to be a mercenary or an interpreter in Iraq. Let's give them that. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
You have become a real idiot. Go ahead, keep stalking my posts. I'm happy to make you look like an idiot over and over. Again, can't level a decent, logical argument? Make it about the poster. Straw man.
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A straw man is not about the poster. The would be either an ad hominem or a "poisoning the well" fallacy. |
Me typing too fast and not editing. My error. You know well I have used the term correctly in all otehr instances in our discusssions, but if this gives you thrill, hey... go get your's.
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| Anyway, one only has to look at your gopher/scrotum sig line to see your policy on such debating tactics. |
Again, your support of his disgusting, way-beyond-the-line post speaks volumes of you, not me. It will stay in my sig to he man's up and recants. And, as stated elsewhere, son, can't be an ad hominem: it is not used within any argument whatsoever. Why bother again? I already smacked you on that issue.
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| Quote: |
| Now, dumbfuck: show us where I said all mercenaries are murderers? |
You stated:
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| However, it's not murky to me: you are in a foreign country killing people and you are not a soldier? You're a murderer. |
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I made a general comment in reponse to a general point. I did not intend at that time for it to be an exhaustive response on the issue. I have clarified. Your response? Repeat your original stupidity with no acknowledgement of my clarification. Stupid.
You play at words because you cannot win on merit. As usual.
| Quote: |
I commented:
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| Being paid to level a gun at someone about to kill you or the person you're hired to protect doesn't make you a murder... However it's utterly simplistic, as EFL contends, to simply write them off as murderers. |
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I'm not talking about all mercenaries. I'm talking about the ones being employed in Iraq, the ones you seem to be suggesting are murderers.[/quote]
You mean you are clarifying your comment? 
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| Now, go ahead, claim you've addressed this in some other post... |
I have not. Toss another bullshit comment.
All you do is attack my posts. You do not deal with the subject. This is the act of the scared, the cowed, the weak of mind.
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| I think the level of civility in this forum is really going down the drain. It seems like some people's "mouths" are like sphincters emitting foul verbiage. |
There is no civility in lying, misrepresenting, using straw men, ad hominems, etc. It's just lies and bullshit. I know most of you accept that. I don't. |
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