Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

WHO REALLY WON THE WAR OF RHETORIC AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
stevemcgarrett



Joined: 24 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: WHO REALLY WON THE WAR OF RHETORIC AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY? Reply with quote

Columbia University is an Ivy League institution of higher learning but nothing its President, Lee Bollinger, said or did when introducing the Iranian President yesterday would lead one to believe that. He came across like a community college president instead.

It's a given that Ahmadinejad is a lout, a rabble rouser, a bigot, and a dissembling puppet of a theocratic regime. It's also irrelevant to the issue at hand.

What is highly relevant but overlooked is that Ahmadinejad, like most "petty dictators," understands intimately the power of propoganda to drive foreign policy. It is a lesson that few American leaders--Nixon and Reagan notwithstanding--have fully appreciated.

So it should come as no surprise that Bollinger underestimated the Iranian President when it invited him to speak. Bollinger played right into Ahmadinejad's hand, not so much by inviting him to speak, but by playing the role of the ungracious host.

For no matter how utterly contemptible Ahmadinejad is, he was still an invited guest of the university administration and the leading representative of his country. Those two essential points were lost on Bollinger, but not evidently on Iranian public opinion, however state manipulated its media might be. Indeed, Bollinger himself came across as a lout.

I would argue that Bollinger's classless posturing was all too predictable. Bollinger is a quintessential American liberal who believes that he has moral authority on his side and therefore can condemn others as he sees fit. As a liberal of a campus infused with politically correct codes of conduct, he also views it as his legal obligation to call out anyone who poses a potential threat to the accepted academic view of modern society.

So the college president rails against the Iranian leader and all he supposedly stands for and never deigns to give his guest a proper introduction. In doing so, he not only misses the opportunity to contrast himself to Ahmadinejad by showing his greater tolerance but provides the latter with the verbal weaponry he needed to show the Third World how arrogant and self-serving the "imperialist" West really is.

And the truth of the matter is that in most of the world Bollinger's behavior has been received with disdain, if not disbelief. How can someone of his stature and well-groomed education resort to bullying of a guest? But that is precisely what he did. And even in response, the Iranian President was measured in tone and justifiably indignant without saying it in so many words.

I found Bollinger rather pathetic: first he invites the man out of some noble personal crusade to air differing views--what any prestigious university must do--and to celebrate "diversity of opinion" in the marketplace of ideas. But instead he recoils at the backlash among his students and the community it serves and tries to redeem himself by coming across as brave in the face of tyranny.

Had he left well enough alone--let the students ask the questions and probe the Iranian President for more than just pat responses--or posed a question of his own for the latter to address at the outset of his talk, he might have exploited this rare public opportunity appropriately. Instead he came across like an "angry young man" who can't control his impulse to blurt out his true feelings. And in the process he gave the impression of intolerance--the very stance he condemned in Ahmadinejad.

What are your thoughts on this fiasco?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dome Vans
Guest




PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiasco

Razz
Back to top
catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"There are no homosexuals in Iran" Laughing

Heard that about Korea as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
"There are no homosexuals in Iran" Laughing

Heard that about Korea as well.


Hey at least Iran is trying to make it reality.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thiophene



Joined: 15 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was childish, something I would do, not somehting I'd want the president of my uni to do. While the invite was positive, the attack was just embarrassing.

And why do executioners cover their faces, if it's something you support, something the government apparently supports, why cover your face? I don't get it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What they ought to have done is allowed Iran's president to speak and then had a question and answer session afterwards. They ought to have invited Christopher Hitchens to do the questioning.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The head of Columbia spoke shamefully.

SHOW SOME FUC&IN CLASS! Idea

meathead

btw - Why isn't this some kind of more formal ( hopefully a little better than CNN-style ) poll?

Ahmadinejad clearly wins here ... if only by default Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with you, SM. I almost felt embarassed for him. Very badly handled. He made himself look a total arse.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wannago



Joined: 16 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Columbia's prez (whose actions are indefensible), I will say that he was in a no-win situation. Because of all the railing done before this Iranian turd came, to have said nothing critical would have invited cries of Columbia being too easy on Yabbadabbajihad. Now, what Columbia's president said was obviously over the top, but he was left with only two choices...both of them bad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What are your thoughts on this fiasco?


What wannago said. No matter what Bollinger had said, you would have made a thread criticizing him for it. I don't think this surprises anyone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wannago wrote:
At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Columbia's prez (whose actions are indefensible), I will say that he was in a no-win situation. Because of all the railing done before this Iranian turd came, to have said nothing critical would have invited cries of Columbia being too easy on Yabbadabbajihad. Now, what Columbia's president said was obviously over the top, but he was left with only two choices...both of them bad.


This is true. There are so many irrational and emotional people about, and he feels he has to pander to that. He was frightened. I recall starting a thread to examine whether Ahmadinejad really did say he wanted to 'Wipe Israel off the Map' (as academics who specialised in Farsi were saying that was bollocks) and looking at why the mainstream press and certain politicians might be so keen to perpetuate this apparant inaccuracy (i.e. what was the real motivation for seizing on this and running with it, despite the fact the interpretation of said quote was in dispute).

Some posters here went apeshit and couldn't get their heads around the fact I might be interested in examining this, yet not actually be a fan of his. Too sophisticated a concept, apparantly. The next thing you knew, I was an apologist for all Iranian attrocities and a full on anti-semite, to boot.

I knew full well that that was the kind of idiocy I would face, but this is just a message board, so I posted freely. If I were a public figure, it would be uncomfortable to deal with possibly millions of irrational idiots forming such silly opinions of me. So I understand his behaviour, but I still think he could have managed it better. He appeased this section of the public, at the expense of making himself look like an utter deekhead to anyone with manners and capable of half an intelligent thought.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big_Bird wrote:
wannago wrote:
At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Columbia's prez (whose actions are indefensible), I will say that he was in a no-win situation. Because of all the railing done before this Iranian turd came, to have said nothing critical would have invited cries of Columbia being too easy on Yabbadabbajihad. Now, what Columbia's president said was obviously over the top, but he was left with only two choices...both of them bad.


This is true. There are so many irrational and emotional people about, and he feels he has to pander to that. He was frightened. I recall starting a thread to examine whether Ahmadinejad really did say he wanted to 'Wipe Israel off the Map' (as academics who specialised in Farsi were saying that was bollocks) and looking at why the mainstream press and certain politicians might be so keen to perpetuate this apparant inaccuracy (i.e. what was the real motivation for seizing on this and running with it, despite the fact the interpretation of said quote was in dispute).
.



Uh no.



Quote:

fighting words
The Cole Report
When it comes to Iran, he distorts, you decide.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, May 2, 2006, at 4:26 PM ET

In some ways, the continuing row over his call for the complete destruction of Israel must baffle Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. All he did, after all, was to turn up at a routine anti-Zionist event and repeat the standard line�laid down by the Ayatollah Khomeini and thus considered by some to be beyond repeal�that the state of Israel is illegitimate and must be obliterated. There's nothing new in that. In the early '90s, I can remember seeing, in the areas around Baalbek in Lebanon that were dominated by Hezbollah and Amal, large posters of the by-then-late Khomeini embellished (in English) with the slogan, "Israel Must Be Completely Destroyed!" And I have twice been to Friday prayers in Tehran itself, addressed by leading mullahs and by former President Rafsanjani, where the more terse version (Marg bar Esrail�"Death to Israel") is chanted as a matter of routine; sometimes as an applause line to an especially deft clerical thrust.

No, what worries me more about Ahmadinejad is his devout belief in the return of the "occulted" or 12th imam and his related belief that, when he himself spoke recently at the United Nations, the whole scene was suffused with a sublime green light that held all his audience in a state of suspended animation. This uncultured jerk is, of course, only a puppet figure with no real power, but this choice of puppet by the theocracy is unsettling in itself. So is Iran's complete lack of embarrassment at being caught, time and again, with nuclear enrichment facilities that have never been declared to the inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency.

However, words and details and nuances do matter in all this, so I was not surprised to see professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan denying that Ahmadinejad, or indeed Khomeini, had ever made this call for the removal of Israel from the map. Cole is a minor nuisance on the fringes of the academic Muslim apologist community. At one point, there was a danger that he would become a go-to person for quotes in New York Times articles (a sort of Shiite fellow-traveling version of Norman Ornstein, if such an alarming phenomenon can be imagined), but this crisis appears to have passed.

Cole continues to present himself as an expert on Shiism and on the Persian, Arabic, and Urdu tongues. Let us see how his claim vindicates itself in practice. Here is what he wrote on the "Gulf 2000" e-mail chat-list on April 22:

It bears repeating as long as the accusation is made. Ahmadinejad did not "threaten" to "wipe Israel off the map." I'm not sure there is even such an idiom in Persian. He quoted Khomeini to the effect that "the Occupation regime must end" (ehtelal bayad az bayn berad). And, no, it is not the same thing. It is about what sort of regime people live under, not whether they exist at all. Ariel Sharon, after all, made the Occupation regime in Gaza end.

There are two separate but related matters here. For a start, let us look at the now-famous speech that Ahmadinejad actually gave at the Interior Ministry on Oct. 26, 2005. (I am using the translation made by Nazila Fathi of the New York Times Tehran bureau, whose Persian is probably the equal of Professor Cole's.) The relevant portions read:

Our dear Imam [Khomeini] said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. � Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. � For over fifty years the world oppressor tried to give legitimacy to the occupying regime, and it has taken measures in this direction to stabilize it.

Ahmadinejad then denounced the recent Israeli-Palestinian negotiations over Gaza as a sellout and added, "If we get through this brief period successfully, the path of eliminating the occupying regime will be easy and down-hill."

Not even Professor Cole will dispute that, in the above passages, the term "occupying regime" means Israel and the term "world oppressor" stands for the United States. (The title of the conference, incidentally, was The World Without Zionism.) In fact, Khomeini's injunctions are referred to twice. Quite possibly, "wiped off the map" is slightly too free a translation of what he originally said, and what it is mandatory for his followers to repeat. So, I give it below, in Persian and in English, and let you be the judge:

Esrail ghiyam-e mossalahaane bar zed-e mamaalek-e eslami nemoodeh ast va bar doval va mamaalek-eeslami ghal-o-gham aan lazem ast.

My source here is none other than a volume published by the Institute for Imam Khomeini. Here is the translation:

Israel has declared armed struggle against Islamic countries and its destruction is a must for all governments and nations of Islam.

This is especially important, and is also the reason for the wide currency given to the statement: It is making something into a matter of religious duty. The term "ghal-o-gham" is an extremely strong and unambivalent one, of which a close equivalent rendering would be "annihilate."

Professor Cole has completely missed or omitted the first reference in last October's speech, skipped to the second one, and flatly misunderstood the third. (The fourth one, about "eliminating the occupying regime," I would say speaks for itself.) He evidently thinks that by "occupation," Khomeini and Ahmadinejad were referring to the Israeli seizure of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. But if this were true, it would not have been going on for "more than fifty years" now, would it? The 50th anniversary of 1967 falls in 2017, which is a while off. What could be clearer than that "occupation regime" is a direct reference to Israel itself?

One might have thought that, if the map-wiping charge were to have been inaccurate or unfair, Ahmadinejad would have denied it. But he presumably knew what he had said and had meant to say. In any case, he has an apologist to do what he does not choose to do for himself. But this apologist, who affects such expertise in Persian, cannot decipher the plain meaning of a celebrated statement and is, furthermore, in need of a remedial course in English.
Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair and the author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.

Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2140947/

Copyright 2007 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive Co. LLC


Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Perfect Cup of Coffee



Joined: 17 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're looking for sober logic and constructive arguments, this board sure as hell ain't the place. Just roll with it. This place is like a zoo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Each side won. Each side lost. Amadinnerjacket can go back, play edited clips , making it seem like he took 'em to school. America got a chance to laugh in his face. Would he ever expect to be laughed at in Iran?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jinju



Joined: 22 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP is basically one big rip off of an article in Time or newsweek. Steve, do you have an original bone in your body?http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1665018,00.html

Your profs, if you ever went to university, would have flunked you for this shameless plagiarism
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International