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Will the war between Chinese mainland and Taiwan burst out?
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leozhengbo

Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Zhejiang province, China

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Yes, you are developing your navy, but at the moment, the US has the best in the world. We have any more submarines, and most of yours are outdated, and advanced warships, there would be no way for you to compete with the US Navy at the moment.

compared with the ability of military strength , we are weak . But you know , the war may happen near China, so we have more methods to win . we are not Iraq. we are big nation.it is much much harder to defeat a big country than a small one, big country has much more resources which are not only the military power.

Quote:

We could probably sustain that loss, but the US would not commit mass troops to a war without first obliterating the infrastructure of a country, so we really aren't worried.

You're right. However, America is a country with democracy, the voices of citizens are powerful. If the war begins, things will probably be changed.
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pavilion

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 75
Location: US

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject:

justinlan wrote:

Admittedly,the US is a super country which other countries cannot compete with.However,i think u have forgotten just one thing,,,nuclear power Shocked

,Maybe China cannot beat the US,but ,when it is facing the perdition,it can choose to go to the hell with the US together by using nuclear missiles. Twisted Evil

First, nuclear war would be nothing but bad, second, the US will NOT attack China unless China does something incredibly stupid which would cause the US to attack! Again, quit being so paranoid.

leozhengbo wrote:

I know, so, as I said above, unless China does something stupid and provokes the US, there is no chance for a war.

leozhengbo wrote:

You're right. However, America is a country with democracy, the voices of citizens are powerful. If the war begins, things will probably be changed.

If it was an unprovoked attack by China on a US assests (think Pearl Harbor), the American people will support a war. Other than that, there will be NO war whatsoever between the US and China, so why hypothesize about it? Neither country is stupid enough to provoke war with each other.

mingping

Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 44

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject:

pavilion wrote:

Quote:

First, nuclear war would be nothing but bad, second, the US will NOT attack China unless China does something incredibly stupid which would cause the US to attack! Again, quit being so paranoid.

Pavilion: please give us a definition. What kind of "incredibly stupid" will irritate USA? Will the war between TW and mainland irritate American? I think that wouldn't and shouldn't . The only way will irritate USA is that China try to invade USA, which has very few chance because China is a moderate country and doesn't start a war normally. If the war between TW and mianland starts, this will be the UN's business not USA'S, because TW is not a coutry of USA. If USA thinks the war is not fair so that it wants to help TW or China, I can not agree with it. What kind of principle USA hold can define the war is fair or unfair? Is the principle USA hold right or wrong? Just like the war to Iraq. How can USA think it is on the right and just side? This is why some people from other countries can not accept USA.
P.S.: I don't dislike USA,becuase I think such contry has some advantages and merit, for example the fredom spirit among its people. I just want to express the fact.

pavilion

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 75
Location: US

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject:

mingping wrote:

Pavilion: please give us a definition. What kind of "incredibly stupid" will irritate USA? Will the war between TW and mainland irritate American? I think that wouldn't and shouldn't.

It could. I would not rule out the US supporting Taiwan. We have supplied Taiwan with armaments. There are also two drastically different views when looking at the China/Taiwan situation. There is the Chinese view, which believes Taiwan is part of China and should be reunited by any means, and then there is the outside view, that communist China is trying bully democratic Taiwan into rejoining. Not saying either one is right, but thats how it is. There are many factors that would have to be taken into account before the US would decide whether to support Taiwan with force.

mingping wrote:

The only way will irritate USA is that China try to invade USA, which has very few chance because China is a moderate country and doesn't start a war normally.

Yes, this would cause war. So could attacking any US assets, such as ships.

mingping wrote:

If the war between TW and mianland starts, this will be the UN's business not USA'S, because TW is not a coutry of USA. If USA thinks the war is not fair so that it wants to help TW or China, I can not agree with it. What kind of principle USA hold can define the war is fair or unfair? Is the principle USA hold right or wrong? Just like the war to Iraq. How can USA think it is on the right and just side? This is why some people from other countries can not accept USA.

Um, the US is part of the UN, on the Security Counsel, as is China. The US, if it did help, would support Taiwan, not China. No question about it. The US will not align itself with a communist country. Would it be the right thing to do? Depends who you ask. I don't think the US did the right thing invading Iraq at all, in fact, we did the wrong thing, but I don't think I would oppose supporting Taiwan...

mingping wrote:

P.S.: I don't dislike USA,becuase I think such contry has some advantages and merit, for example the fredom spirit among its people. I just want to express the fact.

I understand, and don't think I don't like China. I am sure it is a beautiful country with nice people! I just do not like people insinuating that the US is going to invade China or attack China unprovoked. (I know you weren't, but others were.)

justinlan

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 43
Location: Guang Zhou CHINA

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject:

mingping wrote:

pavilion wrote:

Quote:

First, nuclear war would be nothing but bad, second, the US will NOT attack China unless China does something incredibly stupid which would cause the US to attack! Again, quit being so paranoid.

Anyway,where is the benefit of the US ,where is the army of the US.Don't touch the cheese of the US,or it would irritate the US.That is a natural thing.You know,it is the strategy of the US.
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joon_star

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Dajon, Korea

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject:

pavilion wrote:

First, nuclear war would be nothing but bad.

Then, Why does US has So many nuclear bombs?
Why does up keep developing new nuclear bombs?

pavilion wrote:

second, the US will NOT
attack China unless China does something incredibly stupid which would cause the US to attack! Again, quit being so paranoid.

US forces in Korea like US forces in Japan is changing its strategy by Bush administration.

It's called strategic flexibility.

It means US will use the US forces in Korea not only when war breaks out in Korea but also when war breaks out the 3rd place against the 3rd party.

Where in you think is the 3rd place?
The 3rd place means outside Korea.

First, TW can be the 3rd place.
Second, China can be the 3rd place.
Third, ...

What country in you think is the 3rd party?

Because it's a diplomatic term, it didn't point out any country.

Then which country is the 3rd party?

North Korea? I don't think so.
Sourth Korea? No way.
Japan? Ridiculous.
TW? No.
Philippines? No.
Malaysia? No.
Singapore? No.

China? Yes, it is obviously China. China is the 3rd party.

Chinese government seems that she doesn't want to comment it for many reasons, But a Chinese diplomat said that if the 3rd pary means China,
China inevitably concerns about it.

In conclusion, I believe pavilion is sincerely a peace supporter, but US government is not .
And US goverment is prepareing something related war against the 3rd party.

pavilion

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 75
Location: US

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject:

joon_star wrote:

Then, Why does US has So many nuclear bombs?
Why does up keep developing new nuclear bombs?

It was because of the Cold War and the arms race between the USA and the USSR. As bad as they are, they are a deterrent, and that is their primary goal.

joon_star wrote:

I am not sure what you mean here. Can you elaborate, please?

What I will say is that the only war that is possible in Korea is if the North attacks the South, which is very doubtful right now. The US will not attack North Korea, so no war there. The US will not attack China, because they haven't threatened or attacked us. There will be no war! The US is not going to be an aggressor in the East. There is no "3rd party".

joon_star wrote:

In conclusion, I believe pavilion is sincerely a peace supporter, but US government is not .
And US goverment is prepareing something related war against the 3rd party.

Yes, I do support peace. Peace is the best way. Smile

I also agree that the US government right now is not peaceful. However, I vehemently disagree that the US is preparing an attack or war against China. The American people would NOT allow it. It will not happen.

Outofin

Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 71

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject:

I don't think there would be a war in 2 years. But peaceful people should be cautious of what's going on. Now CSB, the president of Republic of China, keeps trying stepping cross the line. Whenever he does it, the US raises their pressures. However, I don't know for sure if the pressure could stop him and how much the US is willing to do. CSB could take whatever risk to realize his dream of an independent Taiwan right before he steps down and leave all the mess to China, the US, and Taiwan people.

mingping

Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 44

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: Think about it for a second time

pavilion wrote:

Quote:

then there is the outside view, that communist China is trying bully democratic Taiwan into rejoining. Not saying either one is right, but thats how it is.

pavilion: just as I mentioned before, how the outside country think that TW is not a part of China.
Please pay attention: How do you define a land is a territory of a country? I think there is a principel. What kind of principle do you held? Please tell me.

Outofin

Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 71

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject:

pavilion wrote:

there is the outside view, that communist China is trying bully democratic Taiwan into rejoining.

That's not true. China is not forcing to reunite. China currently claims Taiwan in principle but dont' pursue it by any military means. Instead, China tries everything to make the 2 parts more integrated.

Currently there's no direct flights between Taiwan and Mainland. Who is supporting a direct flight and who is against it? Take a guess. Taiwan is against everything that normalizes the relationship on a civiliar level.

We can say what China's doing is a good strategy on purpose. But no one can deny that this is a very peaceful and constructive way. On the other hand, ROC is the side who is moving to a unpredicatable way. Keeping the status quo is good to everyone in the present stage.

pavilion

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 75
Location: US

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Think about it for a second time

mingping wrote:

Well, according to your criteria, the country that controlled the land at first, owns it. However, that is flawed, because then the US should still be part of the UK, or maybe even belongs to the Native Americans.

My criteria is that if that land wants to be independent, then they should be. It Taiwan choses independence, why not let them have it? Why try to force them to reunite? That will only make things worse. It seems most Taiwanese just want to maintain the status quo, so just leave them be and there will be no problems. Smile

joon_star

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Dajon, Korea

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject:

pavilion wrote:

It was because of the Cold War and the arms race between the USA and the USSR. As bad as they are, they are a deterrent, and that is their primary goal.

Okay, I will not point out the present stocks of US nuclear bombs, but I have to ask the following question.

Why does US keep developing new nuclear bombs?

Last edited by joon_star on Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

pavilion

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 75
Location: US

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject:

Outofin wrote:

No, no, no, I never said that was true. I said that that is the preception. I understand China claims it, so I can see the Chinese point-of-view, but you have to look at the outside view, too. China fired missiles over Taiwan and was running military maneuvers right there. That, to an outsider, gives a preception of hositility and bullying-by-intimidation. I was just demonstrating the point-of-views, nothing else. The best way to resolve this problem would be peacefully.

Outofin wrote:

Currently there's no direct flights between Taiwan and Mainland. Who is supporting a direct flight and who is against it? Take a guess. Taiwan is against everything that normalizes the relationship on a civiliar level.

I doubt Taiwan supports war, because they cannot be certain the US will help them. Taiwanese support maintaining a status quo. China offered the "one country, two systems" policy, but Taiwan doesn't want that, so negotiate. You can't just blame Taiwan for not strengthening the relationship, you have to put blame on China, too.

Outofin wrote:

We can say what China's doing is a good strategy on purpose. But no one can deny that this is a very peaceful and constructive way. On the other hand, ROC is the side who is moving to a unpredicatable way. Keeping the status quo is good to everyone in the present stage.

Yes, and that is what the most Taiwanese support. So, if let be, there will be no problems. China just has to take a step back and leave Taiwan to its own devices instead of pressuring her.

leozhengbo

Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Zhejiang province, China

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Think about it for a second time

pavilion wrote:

My criteria is that if that land wants to be independent, then they should be. It Taiwan choses independence, why not let them have it? Why try to force them to reunite? That will only make things worse. It seems most Taiwanese just want to maintain the status quo, so just leave them be and there will be no problems. Smile

I badly don't agree with you!
Things could not be so simple, if I want to be independent or to create a new country which belongs to me, so is it my human right, or would the government just leave me alone and send a ambassador to my 'kingdom'?
If we let Taiwan be independent and choose their own way, what will Tibet do , what will Xinjiang region do?
Do the states of America really choose their own ways every year?
Could you choose your own way only by yourself, not with the "help" of your parents or others?
_________________
BMW is called "宝马� in China,which means "precious horse", now it is produced by the hands of Chinese.

pavilion

Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 75
Location: US

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Think about it for a second time

leozhengbo wrote:

I badly don't agree with you!

I strongly disagree with you! is the better way to say. (Just a small fix, don't take it the wrong way! Smile

)

leozhengbo wrote:

Things could not be so simple, if I want to be independent or to create a new country which belongs to me, so is it my human right, or would the government just leave me alone and send a ambassador to my 'kingdom'?

If you can acquire land, form a working goverment, good economy and industry, have enough people, and what to form your own country, fine by me!

leozhengbo wrote:

If we let Taiwan be independent and choose their own way, what will Tibet do , what will Xinjiang region do?
Do the states of America really choose their own ways every year?

Tibet and Xinjiang are different issues. They have different circumstances and different histories. Take each issue on its own merits.

leozhengbo wrote:

Could you choose your own way only by yourself, not with the "help" of your parents or others?

Yes, in fact, I could, and have. I have already moved out and am on my own. Yes, my parents helped me get on my feet and stabilize me, and for that I will be always grateful, but if my parents had tried to force me to stay at home, I would have been very mad.

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