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hector
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
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 Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Hi Lorikeet,
I agree with you, i didnt mean to make it sound like "all muslim women voluntarily wears such clothes", rather what i was trying to say is that it is an oversimplification to assert that "all women" who are dressed in that manner are being forced to do so and it might be insulting to some women who have "their own will". Nevertheless, this does not change the fact that many muslim women are treated in an appallingly manner in some muslim countries. I have never disputed that. I have already expressed my dissatisfaction with the existing situation of women's role in some muslim societies. Yes, this is the case in some countries. But i fail to see how this situation of some countries , justifies one to make comments like "a muslim guy can marry 4 women, it is totally legal " or implying that any female who is dressed like that has been forced to do so. That's what i was reacting. |
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technomaniac_tzp
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 78
Location: India
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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If a woman decides to wear hijab(veil), she is free to do so. But for every woman who willingly wears the veil there are countless others who are forced to do so,brutally or otherwise.It is against freedom of expression.Are women who don't cover their faces immodest? I don't think so. I think Islam is very oppresive towards women, it tries utmost to bind a woman to household chores without paying heed to the wants and desires of a woman.This does not in any way mean that I am anti-Islam but I think that to cope with present reality Islam must undergo drastic changes
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The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| hector wrote: |
Hi Lorikeet,
But i fail to see how this situation of some countries , justifies one to make comments like "a muslim guy can marry 4 women, it is totally legal " or implying that any female who is dressed like that has been forced to do so. That's what i was reacting. |
But that's a truth, unfortunately, isn't it? and that's totally ridiculous!! |
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hector
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| technomaniac_tzp wrote: |
| If a woman decides to wear hijab(veil), she is free to do so. But for every woman who willingly wears the veil there are countless others who are forced to do so,brutally or otherwise. |
First you ignored its any willingly practice and now you turn the case into a scoring game, good going Techno, that's a nice way to debate. Second, veil is not the sole way that muslim females uses. As to its comparison of willingly and "countless" unwillingly practice, it is something that you can not prove, nor can it be proved otherwise, It is nothing beyond personal opinion, and it depends upon one's perception to the issue. I am sure the Saudie girl who has written at the first page, holds the opposite view about this, in contrast to yours. So as long as every single muslim women is not asked about this, such phrases won't be anything of significance beyond personal opinion.
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| It is against freedom of expression. |
i thought it is more related to freedom of conscience than freedom of expression.
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| Are women who don't cover their faces immodest? I don't think so. |
Wow! really ? I must congatulate you for your unique intellectuel courage. Who else could clarify such a complex thing.
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| I think Islam is very oppresive towards women, it tries utmost to bind a woman to household chores without paying heed to the wants and desires of a woman. |
Then here is a muslim country for you. These people name themselves muslim and believe in Islam and it doesnt prevent them from participating in public life. for sure not everything is that light pink.
this is the situation in a muslim country 27 years ago
on 16 May 1979, in the International Herald Tribune which compared Turkish and American Women:
"30 per cent of Turkish doctors were women [in Turkey], whereas in the USA the figure was 11.2 per cent, and 5 per cent of all judges in Turkey were women, whereas the figure for the USA was a mere 1 per cent; further, that it was in Turkey that the first woman in the world ever to be elected to any Supreme Court was elected in 1954. Women in Turkey have also stepped into all-male dominated professions such as engineering, dentistry and architecture"
THE MAKING OF TURKISH BOGEYMAN by Tamer Bacinoglu, Istanbul: Graphis, 1998, (p.90)
Here is a muslim woman, a former prime minister.
Tansu �iller, prime minister between 1992-1995
Perhaps, hereafter you will take the arrogant attitude of some western orientalists and claim the right to determine who is muslim and who is not.
Also re-check first page and see what Bernard Lewis has written.
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| This does not in any way mean that I am anti-Islam but I think that to cope with present reality Islam must undergo drastic changes |
Question is, where does Islam end and Arabicism, Tribalism, traditionalism, etc begin? And as far as i could see you are not competent to determine it.
Last edited by hector on Sat May 20, 2006 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hector
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
But that's a truth, unfortunately, isn't it? and that's totally ridiculous!! |
No, that's not. I am a muslim guy and i am not allowed to marry 4 women and nor it is totally legal. What is totally ridiclous is the fact that you are ignorant of muslims and nonetheless you dont hasitate to make ignorant assumptions. I posted this link before and am doing it again. if you have any interests, you can see that is not something peculiar to islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Islam
Muslim polygamy, in practice and law, differs greatly throughout the Islamic world. In some Muslim countries, polygamy is relatively common, while in most others, it is often rare or non-existent. Polygamy is most widely practiced by Muslims in West Africa (where it is also widely practiced by non-Muslims), as well as in certain traditionalist Arabian states such as Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates; in the rest of the Muslim world, it is extremely rare, with some countries even banning ithttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Islam |
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technomaniac_tzp
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 78
Location: India
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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The hijab should be made optional.The ones who are willing can wear and whoever does not need not. I do not have statistics of how many women are willing/unwilling but I don't see why men should dictate what women wear.
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| i thought it is more related to freedom of conscience than freedom of expression. |
"Freedom of conscience"-I have never heard about it.In any case, orthodox Islam does not give any freedom to one's conscience to decide what is right or wrong.You have to accept something as either right or wrong as told by the clerics.
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| "30 per cent of Turkish doctors were women [in Turkey], whereas in the USA the figure was 11.2 per cent, and 5 per cent of all judges in Turkey were women, whereas the figure for the USA was a mere 1 per cent; further, that it was in Turkey that the first woman in the world ever to be elected to any Supreme Court was elected in 1954. Women in Turkey have also stepped into all-male dominated professions such as engineering, dentistry and architecture" |
Great. Then I must say Turkey is a very progressive society.Congrats. But what about Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afganistan(specially when it was under taliban rule).Are they not muslim countries? Do you know about honour killings in Pakisatan? I am not saying that Islam is evil.It is not.But there are areas where there's immense room for improvement, specially in its treatment of women.
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| Question is, where does Islam end and Arabicism, Tribalism, traditionalism, etc begin? And as far as i could see you are not competent to determine it. |
Thanks.But I really don't need your help to judge my competence.I have entitled to have a opinion on everything under the sun, incluing Islam.If I find something wrong or unaceptable I have every right to point it out.My eyes are not blinded by religion.
_________________
The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success |
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hector
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| The hijab should be made optional.The ones who are willing can wear and whoever does not need not. I do not have statistics of how many women are willing/unwilling but I don't see why men should dictate what women wear. |
Agreed on this , rather what i was drawing attention to was the generelization methods you utilize.
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| "Freedom of conscience"-I have never heard about it.In any case, orthodox Islam does not give any freedom to one's conscience to decide what is right or wrong.You have to accept something as either right or wrong as told by the clerics. |
Yes, and taking such a practice as the primary character of Islam and blaming everything from so-called honor killings to despotic regimes on Islam is a non-sense.
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| But what about Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afganistan(specially when it was under taliban rule).Are they not muslim countries? |
My knowledge of Afganistan and Pakistan is rather shaky, but it is likely that there were developments all of which can not be attributed to religion. The Taleban regime which ruled through blood and terror against the will of the majority population like Stalin of the USSR, was found too �severe and harsh� and was not recognized by a fundamental and backward state like Iran, whilst it ( the taleban) had its support from the western world. Just like the invasion and mapulation of iran politics after 1953, and the British-installed, wahabbi-oriented Al-Saud family in Saudi Arabia.
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| I am not saying that Islam is evil.It is not.But there are areas where there's immense room for improvement, specially in its treatment of women. |
I have already clearly expressed my view on the sitation of muslim women more than once.
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| Thanks.But I really don't need your help to judge my competence.I have entitled to have a opinion on everything under the sun, incluing Islam.If I find something wrong or unaceptable I have every right to point it out.My eyes are not blinded by religion. |
I also like to thank you for showing sufficiently in your assumptions that the religion is not the only way to be blinded. If you find something wrong or unacceptable, you are, of course, free to point it out. However those reading you, should know it well that what you deem "wrong or unacceptable" might not always be something related to islam, as you so often attribute. And my humble advise to you is to have a grasp of what you are dealing with before rushing absurd conclusions.
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| Do you know about honour killings in Pakisatan? |
and ?
I am sceptical of sharia and such similar things. Yet, it appears even in it, one can not find any such absurdities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Honor_killing_as_a_cultural_practice_or_religious_practice
There is no mention of honor killing in the Qur'an or Hadiths. An honor killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against the woman, and is technically forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Some religious authorities disagree with extra-legal punishments such as honor killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is mainly a cultural issue. However it is not punishable in Islamic law as applying a penalty requires the consent of the deceased's family. But because certain pre-Islamic cultures have influence over vast Muslims, murderers of females use Islam to justify honor killing, even though there is no support for the act in the religion.
Last edited by hector on Mon May 22, 2006 5:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| hector wrote: |
| RedRose wrote: |
But that's a truth, unfortunately, isn't it? and that's totally ridiculous!! |
No, that's not. I am a muslim guy and i am not allowed to marry 4 women and nor it is totally legal. |
well, maybe you are the only Muslim guy who isn't allow to marry 4 wives.
Are you ok with the unfair situation? I mean, when you see other men marry 4 women but you can't, that would be sad. |
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hector
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
well, maybe you are the only Muslim guy who isn't allow to marry 4 wives.
Are you ok with the unfair situation? I mean, when you see other men marry 4 women but you can't, that would be sad. |
silly thing, keep your sarcasm for yourself. I am not and i have never been the only one. |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| hector wrote: |
| silly thing, keep your sarcasm for yourself. I am not and i have never been the only one. |
Glad to know you are ok with the whole marry-4-wife thing. keep taking easy  |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: |
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This is what the Quran says:
Sura [4:3] If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers - you may marry two, three, or four.
If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship.
So, I think financial hardship is what really keeps people from marrying more than one wife. |
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hector
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| pugachevV wrote: |
This is what the Quran says:
Sura [4:3] If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers - you may marry two, three, or four.
If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship. |
and here it goes on
[4:129] You can never be equitable in dealing with more than one wife, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging (neither enjoying marriage, nor left to marry someone else). If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
another translation :
"Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." 4:129,
quotes from the encyclopedia the link of which was previously given
Judaism
Biblical Jewish law allowed polygamy, although along classical Jewish history it was always the exception rather than the rule...
Christianity
...Christian reform movements that have aimed at rebuilding Christian doctrine based on the Bible alone (sola scriptura) have at least temporarily accepted polygamy as a Biblical practice.
...on January 13, 1524, Luther had written to Chancellor Gregor Br�ck (1483-1557) [18], saying that he could not "forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture." ...
I also found this page through a simple google search, there were some 645 000 results, i havent checked its crediblity and it is quite likely that it may contain distortions like all other propaganda pages, it was the first result of the google search and it gives some idea.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ntpoly.htm
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| So, I think financial hardship is what really keeps people from marrying more than one wife. |
No, its rather a desperate attempt to conceal the fact that a major piece of an instrument of an anti-islamic propaganda is practiced quite rarely in the rest of muslim world. |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:02 am Post subject: |
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It's not propaganda... It's in your holy book and it is practised.
That makes it fact.
How inconvenient. |
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hector
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| pugachevV wrote: |
It's not propaganda... It's in your holy book and it is practised.
That makes it fact.
How inconvenient. |
yes it is, especially when it is presented in a distorted fashion at the hands of feverish minded zealots. |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Hector, you can't have it both ways.
Is it in your holy book? = Yes.
Is it practised in Muslim society? = Yes.
It is a part of Muslim culture.
You should realise that the treatment of women in most Muslim societies (and I do not include Turkey) is considered to be repressive by most liberal democracies, where women are considered to be equals.
Those who dislike Islam will try to make it an issue, just as Usama and his boys try to make Islam an issue in their terrorist activities against the United States.
If there were no Usama, there would be none of this anti-islamist feeling throughout the rest of the world.
However, it ought to be pretty obvious to anyone that Usama does not believe in Allah.
If he did truly believe, he would let Allah deal with his enemies himself. |
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