Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Diana]

Well, now that the US and coalition forces are in Iraq, it's time to reveal to the world how much oil Iraq actually have. I copied and pasted parts of the article. The entire article is found on the weblink. In summary, there isn't a lot of oil in Iraq.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/luft20030512.htm

Given Iraq's poor record of reporting on other issues of international concern, there is every reason to suspect that Saddam Hussein's regime was less than candid in its reports on oil reserve estimates�especially during the past 12 years, when Iraq's oil fields were inaccessible to reputable Western companies.

Even before the 1990-91 Gulf War, it was difficult to assess what still lay beneath the Iraqi sands. Most of the geological data about Iraq's reserves was gathered before the nationalization of the Iraq Petroleum Company in 1972. From then on, data on Iraq's oil reserves was closely guarded by Saddam's regime, which limited the ability of the international community to conduct an external audit. For the most part, Iraq's oil data has been marred with inconsistencies, gross approximations, and, at times, bold exaggerations. In 1987, for example, despite the fact that it was in the midst of war with Iran and its oil industry was mostly static, Iraq claimed to have more than doubled its reported reserves from 47 bbl to 100 bbl. The increase was a lie: it was just creative bookkeeping designed to increase Baghdad's OPEC quota rather than the result of new oil discoveries. Over the last six years, Iraq has claimed that its reserves have remained constant, despite the fact that it produced close to a billion barrels per year through the oil-for-food program and its various smuggling operations via Syria, Jordan, Turkey, and the Persian Gulf.

As for undiscovered reserves, external auditing is even more difficult and Iraq's claims are even more dubious. Issam al-Chalabi, Iraq's oil minister from 1987 to 1990, admitted in the March 24, 2003 issue of the OGJ that Iraq's oil figures are "preliminary in nature since work was often interrupted by political problems, and the technology used is now outdated." Large parts of the country, especially in Iraq's Western Desert and its northwest, are still untapped and need to be explored. This is where the DOE and USGS really part company. According to the DOE-EIA's Iraq web page, deep oil-bearing formations located in the vast Western Desert region could possibly yield as much as 100 bbl. This again contrasts with the detailed data of the USGS, which suggests only a 50 percent possibility of 6.6 bbl in Iraq's Western Desert petroleum system. Even under its most optimistic scenario, the USGS predicts no more than 14 bbl coming from this area.

[Diglossia]

Diana, I realise you're an American (living in Guam) and that you feel the need to defend your country from everything bad posted on this forum. I'd advise, however, that defending Bush is something that will only make you look like a fool. To so seriously reply to every anti-Bush statement made in this forum might make you look rediculous (defending the devil)

Sure there wasn't as much oil as they thought. Ooops!
Sure there were no weapons of "mass destruction" either thought. Ooops!
Sure Bush made a huge mistake when he referred to the people of Pakistan who helped him try to find Bin Laden as "Packies". Ooops!

Bush is a 'dictator' who was not even officially elected into office.

While I sincerely respect you for being so bright, well-spoken, and for having such great pride for your country, Diana, I too question the actions of George double-ya. It's not personal so do not take as such.

[Diana]

[Diglossia]

My point is : to stop defending Bush wouldn't equal supporting 'the axis of evil', Diana. On the contrary, it means you'd be against all those who don't follow international law.

I can only assume that such a Bush-supporter as yourself must also be pro-capital punishment, prolife, and against affirmative action, medical use of marajuana and the legalization of gay marriages?

I not, I'd bring it to a simmer when it comes to 'defending Bush'

[Diana]

[Diglossia]

One has to wonder.... if one defends and idiot too much...

For every 'fact' you state, there's another 'fact' to counter it.
You have all the rights in the world to say as many facts as you want, Diana (even though they're falling on mostly deaf ears at this point). Say what you want , whenever or wherever you want.

I'm just trying to warn you that pro-war attitudes and the support of killing teenage and young adult soldiers and tens of thouands of locals (including women and children who never would have been killed under the Saddam administration) for the purpose of imaginary ideals ("the weapons of mass destruction must be on wheels" what Mr Bums-feel said, not any representative of the UN).

(I wonder if she's sitting right there waiting and waiting, and hitting the refresh button over and over again until she sees 'Diglossia' show up... Like a sexy Catwoman-type waiting to pounce) ; )

[purna]

Diana,
Being out in Guam (basically a US military installation in the Pacific Ocean), you are not that closely in touch with what is happening in the U.S.. President Bush was not elected President; he was chosen by the Supreme Court, put in place by 2 former republican presidents, Reagan and Bush the elder. In fact, Al Gore recieved more votes in the election than Bush, please check your facts. Also in Florida, where Pres. Bush's brother is governor, many African-American voters (usually democratic voters) were removed from the voting roles illegally. Their names were matched to a list of convicted felons and any name that bore a resemblance to a name on this list was removed from the voting lists. In addition, Florida got the help of one other state in its attempt to deny the vote to African-Americans....guess who...Texas. Who was governor of Texas at that time??? This went so far that the leader of the democratic party in a Florida county had her name removed by the Republican administration, headed by the future president's brother. If this election had taken place in a country having democratic elections for the first time and was being observed by the Carter Institute for Peace or the UN, it would have been declared "dirty". We here in the states could easily smell the filth; I guess the bad smell didn't reach Guam. So don't tell us Bush was elected President; It was a coup and it goes a long way in explaining the extreme hubris and arrogance of the current regime in Washington. After all, if you can steal the American presidency and get some people to believe that you actually won the election, you feel fairly free to act as you want. By the way, the reference to Gore's not winning his or Clinton's home state was truly a red-herring. It's true, but losing the vote in his home state is not proof that Bush won the election or proof that Gore didn't win the election. I agree that if Gore won the states he would be president today and we wouldn't be arguing about how Bush stole the election; we'd just be arguing about whether he tried.

BTW: TO ALL, unlike Diane, many Americans don't see it as a choice among Bush, Hussein and Bin-Laden. Many of can see the fallacy in this argument. It's not a case of either..... or. Hey diane who is your choice? Hitler, Stalin, or Mussolini. I believe Hitler was "elected" too.

Peace,
Purna (sarcasm comes naturally when you grow up in New Jersey; don't take it personally as we are willing to get as much as we give)

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel

[Diana]

Regarding George W. Bush's election:

Bush has an electorial vote of 271 and Gore has an electorial vote of 266. Abstentions include 1. One Gore elector from the District of Columbia, Barbara Lett-Simmons submitted a blank ballot to protest the lack of representation of the District in Congress.

Bush won the electorial votes of 30 states: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Lousiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas (Bush's home state), Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wyoming. It is noteworthy that Bush carried Gore's home state of Tennessee andBill Clinton's home state of Arkansas.

Gore won the electorial votes of the District of Columbia and 20 states: California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachuesetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin.

As for the Election controversy in Florida:

Florida was the state with the pivotal electoral votes. Had Gore carried his own state Tennessee, the election would have been over. The media reported that the Bush lead was dwindling and some heavily Democratic districts in Florida were yet to be counted. By November 9th, Bush was ahead by slightly less than 2000 votes. Because of the slim winning margin, Florida law demanded that the votes be recounted in all counties by machine tabulation. As the end of the machine recount, Bush was ahead by 327 votes.

Democrats then demanded hand recounts in 4 heavily Democratic counties (Volusia, Broward, Palm Beach, and Miami-Dade). Hand or manual recounting is a process that is mandated in close elections under Florida law.

Bush sued in Federal District Court to stop the hand recounts. The election had not been certified, and the absentee ballots were still being counted. Bush's suit to stop manual recounts was DENIED by the Federal Court.

November 14 was the deadline proscibed by Florida law to certify the election results with the exception of the absentee ballots. Gore then sued to extend the date. A lower court allowed Ms. Harris (the Republican Florida Secretary of State) to certify the vote on November 17, but was overruled by the Florida Supreme Court. By November 18, the absentee ballots were counted, and Bush was leading by 930 votes but there was still no certification.

On November 21, the Florida Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the hand recounts had to be included in the tally of votes. All of the Florida Supreme Court justices had been appointed by Democratic governors and were perceived to be partisan. At any rate, the Court set a deadline of November 26th, 5:00 p.m. for submission of the hand recounts.

On Thanksgiving Day weekend, the Miami-Dade county officials decided not to recount, declaring there wasn't enough time for the procedure. Volusia, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties, however, continued the hand recounts amid the controversy.

After 5:00 p.m. on November 26, Katherine Harris certified the vote with George W. bush in the lead with 537 votes. Volusia and Broward Counties had made the hand recount deadline, but Palm Beach was late and was not included in the tally. Nevertheless, even with 2 heavily Democratic Counties in, Bush was STILL LEADING.

Surely, you don't expect me to believe that Al Gore who couldn't even get electorial votes in his home state of Tennessee was supposed to be the President. Bush got the electorial votes of not only his home state, but the home state of Al Gore and Bill Clinton. So much for your theory that Bush was not ELECTED legally. Sounds to me that he was elected LEGALLY.

[asterix]

Where were all you yankee whiners when you had a chance to defeat George W?
If every American who was eligible to vote had voted, you MIGHT have had a different President. Or you might not - you MIGHT have had President Bush with a larger majority.
IF.
The fact is that George W. IS the President of the USA. As such he represents ALL the American people whether you like it or not. And in the name of the USA he tried and succeeded to do something about a disgusting dictator.
For my money he made a courageous decision.
For all you American patriots (I use the term loosely) who like to get on here and slag off Dubya and the USA ..I hope you realise how it looks to your enemies, who are legion, and frankly do not distinguish between a Republican and a Democrat but will kill all of you if only they could get their hands on a big enough bomb.

[Diglossia]

Who's calling who Yankee, Asterix? I never said I was an American (nor Brit for that matter)

I do have a question for Diana though: while you'll completely condone the war actions taken by the US, how did you feel when you saw those photos of the Iraqi POWs being forced to have sex with each other, and then when you saw what happened to Nicholas Burg when the US refused to trade him for some of those POWs?

[Diglossia]

Oh yeah! and how is it the U.N's fault for there being no weapons of mass destruction? Chronologically, I remember this happening :

1) UN inspectors 'inspected' and found nothing
2) Rumsfield said that the weapons must be on wheels (literally)
3) no weapons were found (on wheels, wings, or rockets)
4) no American soldiers found any of them either

Diana's 2 cents : "Sure, there wasn't any weapons of mass destruction either... I guess the United Nations lied about that too."

Can you explain how the UN lied about weapons they denied existing. Metaphysically, this makes no sense.

[Diana]

[Diana]

[Diglossia]

[quote="Diana"]

[Diana]