Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[pugachevV]

I've looked at your reference. It doesn't support your argument.
It merely says that using the subjunctive is nowadays thought of as "formal".
The lazy usage that prevails today is apparently encouraged by grammar "experts".
Incidentally, in UK, from whence your reference is taken, it is possible to pass your "A" level exams which are required to get into a university, with a score of less than 50%.
So much for a British education, once the envy of the world.

[Meadowlark]

What is this a tag team?

I don't know what you read or where you read it, PugachevV, but if you read the material I provided for Hela in the earlier posts in this thread you will find that my answer (not argument) is more than adequately supported. I could easily supply numerous additional references if I felt it was necessary. I do not.

You haven't provided a single reference to support your opinion. You seem to expect to be unquestionably regarded as the highest authority in this matter. Do you comment on every teacher's answers or just mine? Have you no better way to spend your time than attempting to bully me? Your rudeness is inexcusable. I'm not willing to waste any more time replying to your frivolous posts. From now on they will be ignored.

[advoca]

Oh my gawd! Such sensitivity! Relax everybody. Lighten up.

This isn't a point scoring game. It�s not an examination to see who is the most qualified teacher. It is supposed to be a fun and friendly forum and is intended to help students.

Lighten up.

[lotus]

Hi,

The subjunctive mood is a tricky case. Some even say that the English subjunctive does not really exist - that it is a contrived mood derived from other languages, without the proper form.

Be that as it may, the subjunctive mood does appear in sentences expressing hypothetical wish, hope, desire or suggestion - such as:

He wish he were more intelligent.

The imperative, "Call the police" becomes "I prefer that you call the police" or "I would rather you call the police." Calling the police is an imaginary suggestion.

However, as Meadowlark mentioned:
""Common usage is quite often different from grammar "by the book"!""

Take these two sentences:

I'd rather you didn't hunt elephants.
I prefer you didn't hunt elephants.

They sound pretty natural to me. Yet, they break the subjunctive present infinitive rule:

The subjunctive (sounding less natural):
I'd rather you not hunt elephants.
I prefer you not hunt elephants.

The English language is very dynamic. How you interpret and use it varies as well.


--lotus

[bud]

Hear, hear, Advoca!

[Meadowlark]

Dear students,

Each of us is entitled to an opinion, but opinions vary, as we certainly have seen here. The fact remains that I have yet to see a single reference quoted other than the ones I provided. If you wish to learn "precise" grammar "by the book", you will be able to verify the following information by researching English grammar textbooks:

Would rather (but not would prefer to) is followed by a past tense when we want to involve other people in the action, even though it has a present or future meaning.

Examples:

Shall we go out for dinner tonight? ~ No, I would rather we ate at home, if you don't mind. (Not - I would rather we eat at home.)

Shall I write to Harry and tell him that we've sold the car? ~ I would rather you didn't. (Not - I would rather you don't.)

My mother would rather we caught the bus, rather than walk home after the party. (Not - My mother would rather we catch the bus.)

~*~*~*~

When we want to talk about a course of action we would prefer someone else to take, we use I would rather + past tense (again - this is only for would rather).

Examples:

* I would rather you went. (Not - I would rather you go.)

* I would rather you called the police. (Not - I would rather you call the police.)

* I would rather you didn't hunt elephants. (Not - I would rather you don't hunt elephants.)

The information above is NOT simply a statement of my opinion. It is material from several textbooks which I have reproduced here for your benefit.

Best wishes for success in your English studies,

Meadowlark

[hela]

Dear members,

Personally, I agree with Meadowlark [but can I say "personally, I..." ?] cf A Practical English Grammar by Thomson and Martinet chapter 297, page 259 (among other grammar books).

See you

[asterix]

I'm sure Meadowlark will be absolutely flying high and singing his head off to hear that he has the Good Housekeeping seal of approval. You have no idea how such birds love to be appreciated.

Yes, you can say, Personally, I

[Meadowlark]

Asterix,

Although I'm happy to have Hela's support, I didn't need anyone's approval. My stack of grammar books, all containing examples similar to those I posted, is more than enough approval for me.

As to how much I may love to be appreciated, since you don't know me I can't imagine what you intended by your remark.

Although some believe grammar questions are off topic in this forum, for some strange reason personal comments such as yours seem to be perfectly acceptable. I like to laugh and I'm often the one to lighten up a conversation with a little humor, but I don't make jokes at the expense of others.

So, Asterix, thank you for helping me to make a decision. This "bird" will soon be flying off to a more friendly locale where helping students is given a higher priority than taking potshots at other teachers. It may be fun for you and your friends, but it�s not fun for me. It's just a silly waste of time.

Don't despair. I'm sure it won't be long before another unsuspecting teacher ventures into your web.

Meadowlark

PS Although you haven�t asked a single question about who I am or welcomed me in any way, for the record I'm a "she" not a "he".

[pugachevV]

Dasvidanya Tovarisch. You will be sorely missed..

[bud]

What?!?...

What the hell is going on in here? Asterix, I did not in any way get the same impression as you did. I have been marvelling at Meadowlark's thouroughness and caring in her responses. I got absolutely no impression from her posts that she is high on herself.

Meadowlark, please don't leave. Those responders are long-time contributors in this forum whom I respect greatly. I don't know why they are reacting so negatively to you, but none of them are usually like that.

Please stay... I think you'll see soon that the ambience in here is much nicer than it may seem at the moment. And please know that not everyone in here feels the same as they do.

[Meadowlark]

Dear Bud,

Thanks so much for your kind words. You are a true gentleman.

I'm sorry, but when something starts to hurt it's time to leave. I have no idea why the people you respect so much have so little respect for me. It can't be because I'm from New Jersey, unless they've made an exception for you.

I put a lot of effort into answering students' questions because the students rely on me and I take that very seriously. When it comes to grammar and usage I think it's important to give students dependable answers, not just opinions. The fact that it's perfectly acceptable here for any self-proclaimed expert to rudely announce that material quoted from a highly respected source is wrong is beyond my comprehension. It's not fair to the teacher who took the time to provide the answer and it's not fair to the students who now don't know who to believe.

Four students have written to me privately to express their frustration with this situation. They've all said they wish they knew more about the credentials of the people who answer their posts. When I registered as a member I thought it best to just say where I live and leave it at that. Now I'm wondering if my experience here would have been different had I included more information in my profile.

Bud, I really appreciate your support, but from what I�ve seen, and haven�t seen, in the past two days I don't have any reason to think things will improve. It's not fun any more, so it's time to move on.

All the best,

Meadowlark

[asterix]

Because, Bud, pedantic pomposity is not attractive, and anything that prickly should have Br'er Rabbit living under it.

[bud]

Meadowlark, I'll be hoping that sooner or later you'll change your mind. You're a welcome addition to this forum, and one who can competently answer Hela's difficult questions.

Asterix, I just don't see it.