Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[asterix]

To itp-008
On 3 November 1970, Dr. Salvador Allende (Salvador Isabelino del Sagrado Coraz�n de Jes�s Allende Gossens) became the first democratically elected Marxist head of state in the history of Latin America -- despite the opposition of the U.S. Government.
On September 11, 1973, a military coup d'etat took place, led by the then-Commander of the Army, Gen. Augusto Pinochet.
Allende died during the coup.
So, the Chileans replaced the Communist with a fascist, and their democracy was set back by 20 or more years.
It is alleged that the CIA organised the unrest that followed Allende's election.

[ltp-008]

What I want to emphasize is that communist governments such Cuba,North Korea and China don't respect civil rights,in order to maintain their rules,they oppress their opponents,the practices of these communist countries in the 20 century and early 21 century have proved that they are not only failure in freedom and democracy,but also failure in economy developments.

there are good capitalism regimes and bad capitalism regimes,most European countries are good capitalism regimes ,most Latin America countries are bad capitalism regimes,but bad capitalism regimes can be changed into good capitalism regeime in which thier people not only enjoy their freedom and democracy ,but also succeed in their careers.However,there are only bad communism regimes, through the history bad communism regimes can not be changed into good communism regimes,this is because of its trait . In terms of economy they perform command economy in which this system slow down economy developments,in terms of politics they oppress their people,this slow down social progress.

Good capitalism is a cure for communist ocuntries,so it is possible that these few communist countries will disappear in the near future .

asterix ,thanks for information,I believe that if the governments are elected by thier people,these governments are legal regimes,no matter what kinds of regimes they are.

[asterix]

Communism seems to be a fine ideal in those countries where the wealth is tied up in the hands of a very few people. The poor believe they will get equality and a share of the wealth .
It never seems to happen though. The wealth merely gets transferred to the apparatchiks.
Sometimes the poor do improve their lot in life. They get an education, they get free medicine, and in the former Soviet Union, they got a job. But they don't get freedom, they live in a police state.
I have a Polish friend who said that governing people is like using a pressure cooker. You have to let the steam escape or eventually there is a terrific explosion.

[ClarissaMach]

Itp, I wish I was as optimistic as you. But I must remind you that capitalism, as a system, has its inner contradictions just like socialism has.

I'm not so sure there's such a thing as "a good capitalism" that will someday spread over the whole world making everybody's lives better. It seems to me that there will always be "vencedores" (winners) e "vencidos" (the ones bet by the winners). I'm sorry to use these two Portuguese words, but I couldn't figure out two adjectives in English that, combined, might express this specific relationship among winners and losers.

Let me try to make things a little bit clearer.

�Social exclusion� is a fallacy from my point of view. I don't believe there exist "excluded people" or �excluded nations� as some say. I believe we all belong to the same system; we all work and produce within it; we are all pieces of the same puzzle. The difference is that some of us have access to the globally produced wealth, whereas others don't. Believing that some people or nations are poor because they are �excluded� prevent us from seeing that this people and nations contribute to the global system; they work for it; they give something to the rest of us; the problem is that they don�t enjoy the advantages of it.

My conclusion is that improving the lives of all the human beings that live in this world is not just a question of developing capitalism in this or that nation, but a question of global wealth distribution and equity. Is capitalism the key to solve this problem? I wouldn't be so sure. Actually, the capitalism system is responsible for the most sharp inequities the world has ever known. It was even responsible for the greatest conflicts that have ever happened - WW1 and WW2.

There's a thin book named "Historical Capitalism, with Capitalist Civilization", written by American Professor Immanuel Wallerstein, that can be very useful if one is interested in studying this question. I read it in college and it made me see things through a new perspective.
_________________
Stormy Weather.

[ltp-008]

Recently I got a terrible flu,my fever arrived 38 Celsius,I went to hospital and get medicine injection,now I am getting better.Thanks God for helping me.

Maybe people who live in poverty are fond of communism,the wealth in these countries is centralized to very small capitalists,they are not satisfied with their current condition,they want to change,but once they were successful in changing the social system,what would happen?Through the practice of communist countries such as North Koran and China,thier productive is low,they don't respect intellectual ,their social developments are slowed down,the reslut is that they are even more behind the world.

In most good capitalism countries ,they have social security,medicare,their people get welfare even more than communist countries.It seems to be that these countries have solved the problem between capitalists and workers.People in communist countries even admire people in capitalism countries.Why do these capitalism countries advance those communist countries?I think that because these capitalism countries keep productive their priority ,they put level playing field for all entrepreneurs,so their social progress and economy developments are speeded up,the reslut is that their people get benefits from this social system.These countries are stable and prosperous.

For those bad capitalism countries,I think they need change the social distribution system,they can adjust tax system in order to be fair for those large poor people,gradually they give every people the rights to be educated,once their education function well,people in these countries will get big benefits from their educaiton system,then those countries will become more productive and equality ,they will be becoming more powerful competitors in the world.

[ClarissaMach]

Oh, I'm really sorry for you, Itp! I hope you are better now! Take care of yourself, dear friend!

I guess we finally came to an agreement. I agree with everything you said on your last post.

Do you understand now why socialism sounds so temptating in the so called "third world"? I know that the socialist experiences that took place until now were not that satisfying, but the people who live in socialist countries nowadays are living better than the ones who live in poor capitalist countries. And that's exactly what needs to be changed.

Do I think that socialism is the best way? No, I don't! Just like you, I believe the improvement of the Education system and of the wealth distribution system are the keys to solve this problem.
_________________
Stormy Weather.

[ltp-008]

Thanks ,I am already getting better,what I need now is to have a rest and relax,recharge my energy and then go ahead in my life.

Through these days'discussions,we finally reach some common senses,this mean we both take this issue very seriously although we know that we have little ability to change the world,however we believe something,we stick to it,this is our principle ,if we lose this important principle,our lives will lose meaning.

It is very happpy to disscuss some issues with you and other friends,keep in touch !

[asterix]

It seems that Fidel is recovering from his intestinal problems; supposedly diverticulosis.
I, personally, am disgusted by the joy with which his illness was greeted in Miami by the scourings of the Cuban jails.
Fidel is a man who stands by his principles. That is something they would not understand.

[ClarissaMach]

Yeah, I was disgusted to hear how much they celebrated. Well, they probably have their reasons, which I don't understand though. . . .
_________________
Stormy Weather.

[Manuel]

They are people have scaped from Cuba for pollitical problems.
Explain me how can�t you hate somebody who puts you in jail for more than twenty years if you happen to say or think a different opinion.
It�s exactly the same way people feel happy here in my country whenever one of the militars who ruled Argentina during 1976-1983 has just died. I think that it is totally understandable.

[ClarissaMach]

Yeah, I'm obliged to agree with you... las Madres de la Plaza del Mayo have really strong reasons... You're probably right and I am the one who is not being comprehensive here.
_________________
Stormy Weather.

[pugachevV]

I understand that they may be happy, but is it necessary to perform for the TV cameras? Are they so desperate to be noticed?
Apparently some of them are considering returning to Cuba.
Will they be welcome?

[Manuel]

Who knows?
We really don�t have a clue about what�s going to happen if Fidel Castro dies. I have heard about a civil war, a continuation of the same goverment and other theories. Many theories!!!!
From what I�ve seen in the TV, there�s a very big support to Fidel Castro from some parts of the Cuban society, so I guess that the renegades who want to return to the island won�t be welcomed. But this is only a speculation.