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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
| I am confused. |
We know you are confused.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:25 am Post subject: |
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how? do you know everything about me?  |
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Anuradha Chepur
Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 933
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I don't think a Chinese translation of Shakespeare or Wordsworth would be as appealing as the original in English. Any piece of art/literature is meant to be appreciated in its original form. Translations are only cheap imitations which can in no way get close to the original. When you read a translation, you are only reading another reader's interpretation of the original. Imagine if there is a misprint, the translator wouldn't have a clue. Translation is literally a mechanical job, as even machines could do that. But then, when you don't know the language, you have no choice other than reading a translation, I guess.
Whether a language can capture the poetry of another language by way of translation is not a test of its poetic aptitude.
QOTD:
Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint.
Mark Twain |
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BourneNOIR
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Anuradha Chepur wrote: |
I don't think a Chinese translation of Shakespeare or Wordsworth would be as appealing as the original in English. Any piece of art/literature is meant to be appreciated in its original form. Translations are only cheap imitations which can in no way get close to the original. When you read a translation, you are only reading another reader's interpretation of the original. Imagine if there is a misprint, the translator wouldn't have a clue. Translation is literally a mechanical job, as even machines could do that. But then, when you don't know the language, you have no choice other than reading a translation, I guess.
Whether a language can capture the poetry of another language by way of translation is not a test of its poetic aptitude. |
Absolutely. There's also the problem of interpreters with different backgrounds ending up with translations that are interpreted differently based on the different experiences. I took a translating class before and the prof cautioned us about unintended interpretation when we should be translating word for word. While direct translation is more loyal to the original work, it loses its meaning without the interpretation within the context of the culture. |
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BourneNOIR
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
| Are you from HK? I noticed that you have good english, and you wrote traditional chinese, so I guess you are from HK. |
Thanks for the compliment. I'm from TW. |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:20 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Anuradha Chepur.
Friends is my favorite sitcom. Everytime when I watch it, I listen to the speaking and see the subtitles, some of the subtitles don't acculately transmit the original meanings. and when I thought to myself:"if I were the translator, how should I translate the sentense? could I be better than the recent translator?" the answer is "no, I couldn't" why not? because it's hard to translate some subtle meanings into Chinese, some puns, some potential meanings....they are meant to their orginal meanings just in their orinal language: English.
And the same case happens to any language. as Turtle said, it's hard to completely translate Chinese poems into english. I guess that's the same theory. |
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BourneNOIR
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| I have heard some people say that traditional Chinese characters are better than simplified characters - and I've heard the opposite argument as well. They have presented various arguments to support their position. Your argument for example, "...traditional Chinese has more cultural and artistic values to it due to its evolution from the first pictographs." is a common argument. Unfortunately the logic is flawed. To be true to this logic we would have to go all the way back to using the original pictographs. |
I wouldn't say "better", but depending on the logical fallacy you mentioned I don't see how the traditional Chinese character for dragon (龍) would have less cultural and artistic value than the simplified form (龙) from the original pictograph. Either that or I misunderstood you.
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
Understand please I am not saying you are wrong. But I think the motivation for the argument is more important than the argument in this case. In my mind you don't need an argument - why not just say that you prefer traditional characters, for the nostalgic value, for the pride in longstanding cultural convention, or because you are comfortable with them because it is what you were taught. It's not a logical argument - but it has merit and value from your heart. That's powerful.
But I used a different thought process in deciding to use simplified characters. I have learned both traditional and simplified characters. I use simplified for pragmatic reasons. The fact is that the majority of people that read Chinese have been taught and use simplified characters. I have learned bo-po-mo-fo and pinyin, and use pinyin for the same reason. Pinyin is accessible to a larger demographic. I choose the most commonly used as I don't have so much pride that I will fight a tide that will eventually drown me.
Here's an example to show why I choose pinyin and simplified characters. You used two different Romanization systems (Wade Giles and pinyin ) to write Chi or Qi or 氣 or 气 - which is correct? Perhaps all of them. Which is recognizable by the largest amount of readers? "气" is. Which would a pragmatic person choose to use? |
Yep, if we're talking about pragmatics, no contest there. Remember, I was just curious about where you learned simplified Chinese and the reason behind its use (which you answered).
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
I admit that there is a different feel to traditional characters than simplified characters. For example, I prefer writing my Chinese name (given to me by a good friend) in traditional vs. simplified characters - 唐仁漢 vs. 唐仁汉 . If I ever have the fortune to study calligraphy I hope to use traditional characters. But this is preference based on emotion vs. pragmatism. It has it's place - but is inappropriate for practical decisions.
Ultimately our cultural and artistic values live more in our mind, heart, and way of being, than in the symbols we use to represent them. Heck, I might even be able to get Zhuangzi(庄子) to agree with me using that kind of argument. |
True, the decision is based on the user's purpose and it's always a good idea to learn both (I'm working on recognizing simplified). Your comment seem to say that the decision for using traditional Chinese is more based on emotion, which kind of puts you in the same position as me since culture and arts appeals to emotion not pragmatism. |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I got one!
I heard, if an American guy asks a girl:"Can I help you?"
that would actually mean:"can I help you get pregnant?"
Is that true? |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
I got one!
I heard, if an American guy asks a girl:"Can I help you?"
that would actually mean:"can I help you get pregnant?"
Is that true? |
I never heard of that.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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BourneNOIR
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
I got one!
I heard, if an American guy asks a girl:"Can I help you?"
that would actually mean:"can I help you get pregnant?"
Is that true? |
Haha! It's more like a guy asking a girl in a bar: "May I buy you a drink?" means "Can I get you drunk so I can go to your place for a one night stand?" |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| BourneNOIR wrote: |
| RedRose wrote: |
I got one!
I heard, if an American guy asks a girl:"Can I help you?"
that would actually mean:"can I help you get pregnant?"
Is that true? |
Haha! It's more like a guy asking a girl in a bar: "May I buy you a drink?" means "Can I get you drunk so I can go to your place for a one night stand?" |
That's intersting!  Bourne. then here what do you mean about a one night stand? dose it mean one night erection? if it's true, that's a little long |
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ClarissaMach
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 644
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Anuradha Chepur wrote: |
I don't think a Chinese translation of Shakespeare or Wordsworth would be as appealing as the original in English. Any piece of art/literature is meant to be appreciated in its original form. Translations are only cheap imitations which can in no way get close to the original. When you read a translation, you are only reading another reader's interpretation of the original. Imagine if there is a misprint, the translator wouldn't have a clue. Translation is literally a mechanical job, as even machines could do that. But then, when you don't know the language, you have no choice other than reading a translation, I guess.
Whether a language can capture the poetry of another language by way of translation is not a test of its poetic aptitude.
QOTD:
Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint.
Mark Twain |
I agree with you. There is this saying, "translator, traitor"; to some extent, I believe in it.
Once I was reading "Dead Souls", by Russian author Gogol, in a Portuguese version, and I read a very interesting passage over the cultural differences connected to the way our mother tongue shape us. As I had posted a topic on this theme here at Dave ESL Cafe, I decided to look for the English version of Dead Souls in the internet, in order to write that passage here.
I was absolutely surprised when I realised the English version did not show that passage. First I thought it might have been a problem with the transcription of the book from the printed version to the on-line version; but then I managed to get in contact with a Russian who lived in the USA and that worked as a translator there, and he confirmed that, in fact, there was a whole piece missing in the English version of "Dead Souls".
Incredible, isn't it? And I am not talking about a best-seller, but about one of the best books ever written in the whole world.
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Stormy Weather. |
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ClarissaMach
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 644
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
I agree with Anuradha Chepur.
Friends is my favorite sitcom. Everytime when I watch it, I listen to the speaking and see the subtitles, some of the subtitles don't acculately transmit the original meanings. and when I thought to myself:"if I were the translator, how should I translate the sentense? could I be better than the recent translator?" the answer is "no, I couldn't" why not? because it's hard to translate some subtle meanings into Chinese, some puns, some potential meanings....they are meant to their orginal meanings just in their orinal language: English.
And the same case happens to any language. as Turtle said, it's hard to completely translate Chinese poems into english. I guess that's the same theory. |
I know what you mean. . . I remember one scene in which Phoebe, for a reason which I don't remember now, was trying to lie to Rachel, telling her that she and Monica had gone shopping for. . . for. . . for. . . "for fur, yes, sure, for buying fur!"
In English, "fur" is a word very close to "for", and the joke made sense; but in Portuguese, the preposition "para" (for) has nothing to do with the expression "casaco de peles" (fur). So, if one doesn't speak English, he/she probably won't understand the reason why everybody laughed at Phoebe's sentence.
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Stormy Weather. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ClarissaMach wrote: |
| , he/she probably won't understand the reason why everybody laughed at Phoebe's sentence. |
I understand why "everybody laughed" - because in reality, probably very few people did.
A large percentage of the laughter you hear in American Sitcoms is a "laugh track." It is a recording of random laughter that is put into the soundtrack after taping, and before broadcasting, to make the viewer feel that the audience thought it was funny.
This works on the viewer similar to when you see someone yawn - then you yawn as well. You hear the laugh track and you perceive the show to be more entertaining than it actually is.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ClarissaMach wrote: |
I know what you mean. . . I remember one scene in which Phoebe, for a reason which I don't remember now, was trying to lie to Rachel, telling her that she and Monica had gone shopping for. . . for. . . for. . . "for fur, yes, sure, for buying fur!"
In English, "fur" is a word very close to "for", and the joke made sense; but in Portuguese, the preposition "para" (for) has nothing to do with the expression "casaco de peles" (fur). So, if one doesn't speak English, he/she probably won't understand the reason why everybody laughed at Phoebe's sentence. |
Yupe. and that's why Chinese authorities didn't agree to officially release friends in Chinese mainstorm media. one hand: so many sexual jokes in friends(I don't know what's wrong with sexual jokes though, sometimes the arthority is very hypocritcal); on the other hand, it's hard to translate those puns, metaphors... |
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