Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[ad-miral]

oh I wanted to say that westeners don't treat dragons as bad creatures.
I have read many German fantasy novels, and in these novels dragons are described to be very very intelligent (far more intelligent than human)
For example they fly, not because they have wings, but because they can do flying magic.
For example they also speak human language besides of the dragon language (the dragon language is a message magic which only dragons understand.

And far more!
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love

[brunette]

To beancurdturtle:

The creature you listed appearing in "nearly every ancient culture" has nothing to do with Chinese loong except for their gaint shape and the same English translation. Since you are very interested in this field you may take into account the prehistoric human psychology. Loong can be dated back to the early new stone age, 8000 years ago, people had acquired some living skills to settle down and raise domestic animals. I don't know quite well about the dragon in every other culture but I guess they started very early, too. At that time people were still amazed at the change of seasons and bewildered by the power of nature. They wanted to find an explanation to those mysterious natural events, to find out who or what was controlling all of these, so they created their own creatures, all gaint(means powerful).

In some cultures this gaint creature is depicted as the source of evil. It causes disasters and takes away people's lives. But in Chinese culture it becomes a subject of worship. It is depicted as protective rather than hostile.

That's just my idea. what do you think?

[brunette]

To ad-miral:

It's a pity that I haven't got the opportunity to feast my eyes on that interesting German book. I have never left my country and hardly know a second foreign language. Maybe I am not quite well-informed of the westerners' attitude to loong, I just watched movies, and happened to check the meaning of "dragon" in various English dictionaries, which led me to my conclusion.

[beancurdturtle]

brunette:
Please don't think I am criticizing your opinion. I understand what you are saying and your interest in maintaining a cultural purity in the Chinese word long2(龙).

But I do think that your concern is unwarranted for two reasons:
1. because translation is never perfect from one language to the next.
2. because so many very diverse cultures have a mythical beast that has remarkably similar physical attributes.

Sometimes the beast is revered (worshiped), sometimes feared, and sometimes both. But in all cases I know of the name of the beast is translated to "Dragon."

Now you could insist that a Chinese dragon should be called "long." But when someone asked you, "What is 'long?'" The quickest way to understanding would be to answer "Long is a Chinese dragon." Then you would be right back where you started.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[ad-miral]

brunette:

My grandmother always tells me: Don't make the faults of other people as your own grief. It's bad to be angry because some Westeners don't know the difference between Chinese dragon and Western Dragon.

Let them think what they wanna think.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love

[brunette]

To beancurdturtle:

Thank you. I can really feel your sincerity from your words and feel very happy to discuss this question with you. And here I'd like to state some of my opinion as to the reason you listed in your last thread. Trust me, I don't feel offensed or criticized by you at all. And of course, I don't mean to criticize you, either.

Reason No.1, "because translation is never perfect from one language to the next. " That's true. But at least those translators could do something to express it more precisely, to make it cause less misunderstandings? This misunderstanding could have been avoided if a modicum of attention had been paid to the cultural stuff by the first guy who translated loong into dragon.

Reason No.2, "because so many very diverse cultures have a mythical beast that has remarkably similar physical attributes." In Chinese culture, it is not as simple as a "mythical beast" situation. I know American people like to "lighten up" and be humorous all the time, but not everything could be a proper source of humor. Loong is something very sacred in most Chinese people's heart and to call it a beast is not quite acceptable to us. I don't know quite well about dragons in other culture but I've seen some, so I think "remarkably similar physical attributes" is a little bit exaggerated. We don't have the aim or tendency to ask those cultures to think about this question. But just that they don't like to change the name that creature in their own culture means we must keep that English name of our unique loong?

Most people think loong is similar to dragons on the basis of their identical English translation. Consequently, western people may have some interest in finding out their "minor differences" , while implied in every respect by this language and it's way of thinking, that despite those minor differences, they are more or less the same. Well, I'd say that the westerners' way of thinking is very good, sometimes better than ours. But when it comes to specific culture, isn't it necessary to try that culture's way of thinking to fully understand them? isn't it a kind of respect you owe them?

And by the way, do you know the change of the Chinese name of Seoul, capital city of South Korea? They change it from "汉城" to "首尔". At the beginning, most of us were puzzled by the new name appearing on tv, "where is 首尔?""what is 首尔?" then people will answer briefly,"it's just 汉城." However, nobody in China uses its original name to call this city any more. So I think it just takes time for people to accept a new word.

[brunette]

To ad-miral:

Your grandma's great! I used to think like that, too. But now I'm kind of not quite satisfied with that. I think, despite our government's inability to preserve our culture, civilians like me might see what we can do.

But I still think the key lies in the government, for our ability is so limited. If the government really advocate this, I think this won't be a problem any longer.

[ad-miral]

beancurd, I begin to have a small hint of brunette's thuoght.
We call it Kimono, we don't call it "japanese dress"
We call it Sushi, we don't call it "fish in rice"
We call it Baguette, we don't call it "french bread"
And so on. If we give something a name, we mostly transmit it from the foreign language. And so China want others to call "long" or "loong" to Chinese dragon.
For example in the comic Dragonball they do it.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love

[beancurdturtle]

[brunette]

To ad-miral:

Thank you very much for the illustration. By the way, dragonball is a Japanese comic, is it?

To beancurdturtle:

You seem to have a very comprehensive understanding about China and it's culture, a 中国通. I'm very glad to meet you here, and think you look very similar to a man I saw on movie yesterday.

To ad-miral and beancurdturtle:

I have to apologize for my awkwardness in expressing myself in English. I am just a university student with not much experience in using this language in practice, and thus my explanation is verbose but still causes misunderstandings. I did not really mean that anything that is unique in one culture must be transmitted into other languages with its original pronunciations. The key lies in the degree of the likelihood of causing misunderstandings. For examples, We're very willing to introduce to a foreigner "Tang Zhuang" by the name of "Chinese traditional costume".
and we don't demand you people to say "Tofu" instead of beancurd, and "cha" is well accepted as tea, because they are still themselves in another language, and nobody could mistake them for a kind of fruit or something. But the misunderstandings brought up by dragon is tremendous to the western people except 中国通s like beancurdturtle.

Beancurdturtle, as to the tones of Chinese language, I appreciate your concern, but don't think that's a problem. I guess you've been abroad more than once, and you must have heard the theory " more awkwardness, less misunderstandings"? People tend to be more forgiving and considerate towards foreigners in terms of their inaccuracy in expressing themselves in a foreign language. People in our country are quite used to listening to toneless or wrong Chinese spoken by foreigners, and are in fact having fun correcting them. We constantly corrected our foreign friends' 果酱 into 过奖, and told them it is 答辩, rather than 大便 they are going to take part in tomorrow. And we have better understanding of our language than other people, which will qualify us to recognize easily that a foreigner is saying "望子成龙" despite the fact that what he actually says is "王子称弄".

[beancurdturtle]

Chinese always laugh at my spoken Chinese - then they say I sound like a 北京人 American (Beijing American).

Now how is that possible? 哈哈！(haha)
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[brunette]

[beancurdturtle]

I think part of the reason people laugh is because they are surprised to hear almost 北京话(Beijing Accent) come out of an Americans face.

I have been to Taiwan, Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Wuhan, and Beijing. I can hear the differences in pronounciation in all the provinces.

I can hear the local dialects too, but I can't understand. 北京话(Beijing Accent) Mandarin is easiest for me to understand right now.

If someone from Taiwan speaks to me very fast I just go . Strange, because I had a girlfriend from Taiwan many years ago. Taiwanese accent used to be easiest for me to understand, and I spoke some Hakka words - but not any more.

I love to visit China. Maybe someday I will stay there and work for a while.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[BourneNOIR]

[beancurdturtle]

I learned a little from friends, Taiwanese and Hubei. Then I learned from the old Beijing Language Institute books and tapes in a University course. Now I am working on the Pimsleur series.

I think I really started speaking some with the old Beijing Language Institute tapes. The rolled tongue and open throat sound kind of stuck like a habit.

I don't sound anywhere near like a Beijing Taxi driver, but there's still some of the round sound in my pronunciation.

If I had to choose between round Beijing Hua, and sibilant Taiwanese accent - I like the sound of Beijing Hua better. One isn't better than the other, it's just a personal preference.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss