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Anxious Heart
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 91
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 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| coffeedecafe wrote: |
| if truth is the sun and doubt the shade, why would you try to experience the sun by studying the shade? |
This comparison is poor. Sounds nice.... but doubts come from individual minds and shades come from the lack of sunlight.... I guess that's a difference, isn't it?
I understand your statements, based on the empirical view. I just wanted to say, that this view is based on the axiom, that it's true, what our senses tell us. What if it isn't?
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coffeedecafe
Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Anxious Heart wrote: |
I understand your statements, based on the empirical view. I just wanted to say, that this view is based on the axiom, that it's true, what our senses tell us. What if it isn't? |
if our senses do not tell us what is true,then they are unreliable witnesses and we must look outside ourselves to find truth. if a man claimed, i am the light of the world, and i am the way the truth and the life, the claims are serious enough for effort to find out if those claims are true. actually, the problem is not our senses but our desires. another quote 'the heart is deceitful above everything, who can understand his own?' that is why apple+ peach=watermelon is right that human court is not always just. but to obelisk i would say if you say there is no god and you are correct, that is one thing, but if you say there is no god and you are wrong, you are missing out on one of the great facts of the universe.what do you think would be a fair challenge to put before a creator to prove he exists, and what he wishes.
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obelix
Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 304
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Computers run on 1 and 0 coffedcake. 10 in binary = 2 in decimal.
Why do we always reach "up" for the truth? Why not reach down?
If I believe there is no god and I am right, then you are missing the point that everyone who believes there IS a god is deluded.
Religion is merely an ancient and successful mechanism for controlling the population and as a side effect, handing power to the hierocracy. There are doubtless many great facts about this universe, of which we are part, that mankind does not yet understand but that does not mean that there is a god. |
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coffeedecafe
Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:40 am Post subject: |
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well i like coffee cake  , and its 1,0.
you asked, why not reach up or down for truth. how about in and out as well?
have you thought about the number of prophecies that were proved true over hundreds of years by a baby born in bethlehem at the exact year, with both the terms of his birth and the minute facts of his death recorded beforehand? do you know the number of people whose lives have been improved by trusting him and studying the book which tells of him?
i know there are other religious books, but this one predates the others at its beginning. so far we have no islam, buddist or other claims in this discussion. come on, lets try for proof. what is truth?
though religion can be used by government or others,at its beginning it was a simple question,"how did we get here?", and at best, in the beginning god created all this.
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obelix
Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 304
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:34 am Post subject: |
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No, it's 10. The computer reads 1,0 as 1 and then 0, not 10.
Concerning religion... I am quite content that you believe there is a god. I have no wish to shake your belief
I think Hinduism, Judaism and Buddhism are older than Christianity.
I do not doubt that Jesus lived. I don't believe that he was the son of a god or a god in another form.
As for prophesies: they're always so vague that it's easy for interested parties to fit facts to them with the benefit of hindsight. |
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Anxious Heart
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| coffeedecafe wrote: |
| if our senses do not tell us what is true,then they are unreliable witnesses and we must look outside ourselves to find truth. |
Nice idea, but how is that possible without using our senses?
| Quote: |
| [. . .]to find out if those claims are true |
of course, but how?
| Quote: |
| what do you think would be a fair challenge to put before a creator to prove he exists, and what he wishes. |
If his/her existent is proved, it is no longer a belief. I think one has to be careful with such fundamental things. Before you know where you are you destroy the whole house of cards just because you wanted to put another one on it.
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coffeedecafe
Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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one example of a prophecy which is not vague is daniel chapter5, where a prophecy is given the same night the world empire of its time is overthrown by the medes and persians, two tribes previously considered militarily weak.
another specific prophecy: herod king of the jews, on being asked by wise men from the east where the newborn king is, calls the religious and legal experts together and demands to know where the messiah is to be born. they all agree that that birthplace will be in bethlehem of judea, because that is what was written in micah 5:2.
if someone warns you that your gas tank will only let you drive for 100 miles, and if you try to stretch it to 200 miles without help, your car will quit running- that is a prophecy.nothing vague about that.
judaism and christianity can both claim the earliest place on the basis of the statements that god created the heavens and the earth, and the claim in genesis 3:15 of the continual conflict between the deceiving snake and the seed of the woman who will crush that snakes head.[read the actual verse for word for word accuracy if you like]
there is no need to fear toppling a house of cards, if you are not building with cards. the saying is, the wise one built his house upon the rock, and in the fiercest storm it stood strong.
my challenge offer stands. can we find what truth is? is there a test worthy of a creators strength we can propose?
absolutely -what is proven is no longer belief. once you receive something ther is no longer reason to hope you will get it. the saying back of this thought is now faith, hope, and love exist, and the greatest of these is love.
i do not want to propose a test of the existence and personality of god as i am already convinced he is there. i wish for someone who does not believe he is there, or someone who is not sure if he is there to try to offer a fair contest to let the real god stand up.
is god love? is god truth? is god life? who is he? what i have been taught is that he reaches out to those who seek him- invades our emperical space to allow us to find him. would some one of another belief offer a test of the gods that will register either true or false? any takers?
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coffeedecafe
Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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maybe my challenge is too hard? maybe no one knows what would be a worthy challenge to prove the existence of god and what kind of god he is?
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asterix
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Why do you want to know if we think God exists?
I don't care if there is a god or not and there is no valid science to prove that it does exist, that's why you have to believe.
You would think that a god who wanted everyone to believe it existed would be able to prove it.
So... it either doesn't exist or it's not interested in proving it exists. |
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coffeedecafe
Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| asterix wrote: |
Why do you want to know if we think God exists?
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 because we are on a 'what is truth' forum, and i believe that god is truth. i think the whole creation is a declaration of his power and wisdom. i would even go so far as to say that the heavens show how glorious he is, and the working atmosphere shows how intricately he designs. i think the title of a book i read once fits my feeling about a creator. title? he is there and he is not silent. i am not just taking a poll. i think there is something very valuable which i can selfishly keep to myself, or freely share. but , i think it might be something to let the competing descriptions of a god who does exist, whether he cares or not, or the failure of any god to show up to decide once for all on all the arguements on this point. but any test would have to be a reasonable and proveable test. i don't want to state my personal choice for a test, because that could skew the results. [for instance i could assume aster ix, and obel ix who posted a while back were both from the 'ix' family, and a false presupposition could affect further reasonings] 
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Anxious Heart
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| coffeedecafe wrote: |
| but any test would have to be a reasonable and proveable test. |
That's why you call it 'belief'. If you could prove it, why should anyone believe anymore? (Btw: there were a lot of people, who tried to prove the existent of their God/-s. But since any proof is based on another belief - for instance: a cause is followed by a consequence - it doesn't make much sense to prove such fundamental things. There are things, which noone ever proved. They were taken as basis of discussions, sciences etc. because it is senseful to lay the foundations for a sensible comparison of certain points. On this basis one can prove one thing or another. But only on this basis, that doesn't mean, that there is given any objectivity.)
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"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind." Mahatma Gandhi |
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obelix
Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 304
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Well, as my brother Aster (please note- one "s") has hinted, there is a lot of dubious stuff going on.
The whole idea of virgin birth is decidedly dubious.
The mother of Jesus was supposed to be:
a.) A virgin
b.) A married woman.
I would think b.) precludes a.)
secondly, if she was legally married to Joseph, then "The holy ghost" either seduced her or raped her - both of which actions are a contravention of the ten commandments . |
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coffeedecafe
Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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yes,apart from cloning, virgin birth is a fairly rare occurence, having only occured once with a virgin who had not yet 'come together' with the man to whom she was engaged. someone from whom all life comes from has rights based on that creative authority.
on another point, it would seem that proof would not end belief, but dis-belief. if i go into a laboratory with a belief that a certain chemical reaction will produce a new cancer medicine, i formulate a hypothesis which i try to prove or disprove. if i prove it, my belief is strengthened and i publish my results so other people can try to get the same results independent of me.
in this way, the test[if we think up a workable one] will be freed from the question,'how can i really ever know anything?' by the fact that the testing has passed from one persons hands to having identical results from many people.
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asterix
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: Hypocrisy |
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Your justification for the impregnation of another man's wife by the "Holy Ghost" is droit de seigneur and the breaking of his own commandments is "Don't do as I do, do as I say?
Such hypocrisy is supposed to be anathema to Christians. It also indicates the truth of the saying, Absolute power corrupts absolutely. |
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guDga
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 15
Location: lithuania
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:47 am Post subject: |
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I agree, that we can not always trust our senses,yet what should we trust then? In my opinion, our senses are givven to us to understand truth and that is the only way we can do that. So, we must trust our senses, our mind if we want to know the truth. If we do not trust, then how can we know anything?
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`If our brain would be simple enough to understand it, we would be too dumb to understand it.` |
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