Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[flying_pig319]

Yeah.
This is a very circular discussion. Like Insider said, we're not getting anywhere.
Clearly, we've gotten to the core of the issue and back again, I think this point is a far as we're gonna get.
If we continue this thread much longer, I think *some* people will get very, very angry

[asterix]

We can have circular discussions.
If you take a look at the map of Southern Chile, East of Punta Arenas, on the Straits of Magellan,Manuel, you will see that it also faces the Atlantic, and the distances to the Falkland Islands are not too dissimilar.
However, I think that if Argentina had not been governed by a military dictatorship in 1982, then Britain might have handed over control of the Falklands.
If a democratic Argentine government handles it properly at some later date, I expect that Britain will relinquish control. After all, it is a long way from London.

[flying_pig319]

*Sigh*

[Manuel]

OK. You`re right about getting to an agreement. But you should understand that listening only to the opinion of people who represent only one side of both parts wouldn�t give us a fair result. It�s not right to pretend that only a group of people attached to England by cultural and economical issues can make a decision over a territorial conflict wich involves two countries. In that situation, there would be no voice from Argentina�s side. I hope you understand this point, because I can�t express this in a proper way due to my poor English.
About Chile, I know that there�s an Atlantic coast (I have it very clear), but if you want, you can check it on Google Earth (as I did) and see that distances are quite different. Apart from this, there was an agreement with Chile using the Pope�s intervention which sets our boarders from Beagle Channel to Cape Horn and Anctartic Ocean. There�s an economical area for each country.

About helding the claim for Falklands, I founded that England wasn�t constant along all this years:

1713: The Treaty of Ultrech between Spain, England and France confirms the Spanish domine over its traditionals territories in America, including Falklands.

1790: Spain and England sign the Convention of Nootka, where England formally renounces to any colonial ambition in South America, including its islands.

1825: England accepts the independence of Provincias Unidas del R�o de la Plata (Argentina), and makes no objection about Falklands.

I�m not getting angry if the discussion goes on. I�m not afraid of words, and I don�t feel that this is a place for getting angry. This is why I chose this forum and not any other site, where discussions turn into battles. I like arguing because it�s a way of learning. I�m sorry if *some* people see this in a wrong way.

[flying_pig319]

Oh, I enjoy arguing, as long as it doesn't get hateful. I like having heated discussions like these, but it really seems pointless to go around in circles...
But of course, do what you want

[asterix]

I'd say Manuel and I are having a civilised discussion about the Falkland Islands, or Islas Malvinas.
Any reasonable person would say that, Argentina, being much closer, and therefore much more able to administer the islands, should be doing so.
Unfortunately, the islanders want Britain to continue as the administrator, and Britain probably feels that long term loyalty should not be betrayed.
There is also the language problem.
The islanders speak English, and to them, Argentina is a foreign country with a foreign language which most of them don't speak.
Argentina also has something of a history of descending into dictatorships that have not been very benign, so I suppose there is some caution because of that.
Don't you think, Manuel, that the people who live on those islands should be allowed to choose who governs them?
Gibraltar, is a similar case and should by any reasonable standard belongs to Spain, but the people there , most of whom DO speak Spanish, voted to remain with Britain, and that wish was respected by Spain and Britain.
Similarly Taiwan wishes to be independent from China, probably only because China has a communist dictatorship in place, rather than a democratic form of government. Do you think Taiwanese have a right to choose who shall govern them?

[Manuel]

You �re right about the dark years of dictatorship in my country. That can frighten islanders in the same way it frightens us.
I understand your point, and I really think that people�s opinion is very important, but in this case, we are talking about the opinion of people who is living in a territory that they belong to, but is also a territory which doesn�t belong to their country. And that�s a big trouble.
England has created colonies which now feel attached to the lands where they are settled, but everyone forgets that those lands are mainly strategic points (Gibraltar, Falklands) and that�s the main reason why England wants to keep them.
Accepting the domine of England over this lands is allowing England to believe that they can get any part of the world they want by the use of arguments such as "the natives want to belong to our country", when those natives are citizens of the same country who where sent over there years ago. That�s creating an opinion that won�t be fair to solve a problem.

[asterix]

The days when England was a serious world power have been over for 50 years or more, I think. They bankrupted themselves trying to be the world's policeman.

I don't think that there's much strategic value to these islands any more, but I suppose there might be some mineral resources or something of that nature.

I think you will see, in a few years that Britain, particularly if they have a socialist government that is popular at the time, will hand over the islands to Argentina, especially now that Argentina is democratic.

I suppose that the Falkland Island adventure was actually the cause of Galtieri's downfall and your present democracy, so you should probably feel happy to have them as your countrymen.

If the islanders are treated well, they will soon feel an allegiance to Argentina, and their children will grow up speaking Spanish,with English as a second language.

Bonne Chance.

[Manuel]

I hope it turns that way.
As you say, loosing war was Galtieri�s downfall. As a matter of fact, that war was his last attempt to gain popularity to his goverment. Today, we can look back and see our 20 years long democracy, a hughe achievement in a country that has suffered several dictatorships since 1930. The last dictatorship was the worst, and 30.000 people are still missing, tortured and killed for political issues.
Falklands/Malvinas are a strategic point to control South Atlantic Ocean and, in the future, it will be an important point as regards the Anctartic Continent. There are some petrol activities too.