|
Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
k.m.m
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh
|
 Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: Re: hi |
 |
|
| zeh88 wrote: |
"""""though in ANY country in the world, islamic and not, many and many muslim burn bibles, flags, puppets, and write about Christ as a "Crucified monkey" (and many other things even worse!),"""""
CP, i think i read everything before i posted my message. i think i already told you that we respect ISA (jesus) as he was one of Allah's messenger. in no way the muslims can call him "crucified monkeY"
if anyone says bad words about jesus, muslims equally feel hurt as they would for muhammed. we respect them both equally!
thankyou |
Yes agree with you Isa or JESUS is same as Muhamed if any one say bad to any one of them consider to be BAD this as per Islam .
JESUS mentioned in Koran 25 times . |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I've just told what many people did for Islam... are you telling me I'm not telling the truth or what? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
k.m.m
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Open Letter to Pope Benedict from Indian Muslims
The Milli Gazette Online
To,
Pope Benedict
Vatican City
Respected Sir,
We the Indian Muslim Community as well as the secular masses of India are extremely perturbed by your recent fulminations which are basically an affront to Islam and our Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.). Even though your statements have hurt our sentiments, we assure you that in no way will they hinder the cordial relations that we enjoy with our Indian Christian brethren. We do accept your apologies and also request you to refrain from making such ill informed, prejudiced and ahistorical statements in the future. You have every right to voice your opinion though we humbly suggest that you study the works of atleast the German scholars of Islam who have over the centuries contributed to a constructive and analytical critique of Islam. Indeed your verbal barrage has been untimely to say the least.
They have come at a very critical stage for inter-faith relations globally. On the one hand is being propagated the "Clash of Civilizations" that is committed to promoting a religio-civilizational war. On the other hand, US Imperialism led by the Neo-Conservative Bush junta in alliance with NATO and Zionist Israel is waging a war on Muslim countries as well as the Third World.
We also fear that your statement will harm the cause of the Lebanese nation. It was the unity of the Arab Muslims and Christians that was central to the triumph over Israel. Your statement may have sown the seeds of discord and division amongst the Lebanese which in turn will pave the way for the next Israeli war.
A systematic attempt is afoot globally to demonise Islam and Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) and the recent manifestation of this was the cartoon controversy which had a strong racist and communal bias. A concerted attempt is being made to abet and promote Islamophobia by sections of the Western World. And you will also vividly recall that the last time that the West indulged in Judeophobia, it led to the Jewish Holocaust. The West over the centuries has progressed from its hatred of Judaism and persecution of the Jews to its similar demonization of Muslims and Islam. The west has evolved in its religio-cultural prejudices, yes, from Judeophobia to Islamophobia !!.
Your venerable successor Pope John Paul II was a man of faith and was committed to promoting inter-faith dialogue. He even verbally oppossed the US aggression on Iraq. We were surprised at your silence even when your Eastern flock of Maronite Christians was brutally slaughtered during the Israeli war on Lebanon.
At this critical hour we need the men of faith to indulge in a "Dialogue of Civilizations". This is not a war between the religions of the world. This is also not a civil war within the Abrahamic faiths. The battle is truly between the religions of the world on one hand and Zionism on the other. Both Jewish and Christian Zionism's are theologically corrupting and thus have a subversive influence on Judaism and Christianity. At stake are the very moral and ethical foundations of Judaism and the principles of love, mercy and compassion, which was the central message of Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h.). Infact Christian Zionism degrades the centrality of Christ in the process of salvation and redemption and places Israel at the centre whilst replacing Jesus !!.
It is again Christian and Jewish Zionism that are the greatest impediments to a peaceful and just resolution of the Palestine-Isareli conflict. Our vision is for a just peace for the Jews, Christians and Muslims of Israel and Palestine. Here again we witness an utter lack of engagement on the part of the Catholic Church even though the Holy Land and the town of Bethlehem are under siege. Is the fate of Arab Christians of lesser consequence to the Western Catholic Church?. Is this the old schism between the Western Latin Church and the Churches of the East ?.
Humanity is at an abyss. We stand at the crossroads. One path is that of wars, destruction and armageddon, the other is the path of love, justice and peace and the spiritual evolution of humanity and all of God's Creation. The choice is clear and for you to make.
We look forward to the day when people of all the faiths of the world can dwell in peace, in the spirit of the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.), Gautam Buddha (p.b.u.h.) and Jesus Christ (p.b.u.h.) - the common legacy and teachers of humanity.
Warm Regards,
Feroze H. Mithiborwala (Social Activist)
Syed Iftikhar Ahmed (Editor, Weekly Shodhan, Mumbai)
Sarfaraz Arzu (Editor, Daily Hindustan, Mumbai)
Meraj Siddiqui (Social Activist)
Hanif Lakdawala (Academic)
Muhammad Anis (Social Activist)
17 September 2006
Mumbai - India
http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2006/20060917_muhammad_Pope_Benedict_prophet_islam.htm
........................
Thanks: Feroze,Syed,Safaraz,Meraj,Hanif and Muhammad...
We learned that: ( When facing a problem, the weak mind all the time a afraid and the" small" empty minds all the time against, but the Wise mind he/she will study it and the serious one who he will decide.) ..
KMM.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
What has Pope done to Muslims?
He has done nothing, but they are trying to bully him into an apology.
Has the Pope insiosted on an apology from Muslims for all the outrages they have committed against Christians?
I don't think so.
It is time Muslims took a serious look at themselves and the way the world sees them.
I think they will not be able to recreate the Ottoman empire, no matter how much they may wish it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
that Muslims has done wrong things before doesn't mean that the Pope doesn't have to apologize. But the Pope already apologized so it's now ok, I hope. Otherwise the muslims really exaggerate too much.
Muslims should learn to make differents between the innocent people and the real criminals.
The Pope quoted a saying of the Byzantine King Manuel II Pal�ologos in his German visit, which said that Mohammed only did wrong things in his life.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
k.m.m
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| pugachevV wrote: |
What has Pope done to Muslims?
He has done nothing, but they are trying to bully him into an apology.
Has the Pope insiosted on an apology from Muslims for all the outrages they have committed against Christians?
I don't think so.
It is time Muslims took a serious look at themselves and the way the world sees them.
I think they will not be able to recreate the Ottoman empire, no matter how much they may wish it. |
All whats happened to Muslim since the last couples of hundreds years ago , killing and blood and colonized and occupation is nothing !!!...is that fair ??
If you think they will not create Ottoman empire, don't worry they will not,Look at what's happen to the U.S.S.R empire...it was history ...
Working individual counters under the umbrella of Islam is good solution NO Ottoman empire NOR Taliban regime..
KMM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
k.m.m
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ad-miral wrote: |
that Muslims has done wrong things before doesn't mean that the Pope doesn't have to apologize. But the Pope already apologized so it's now ok, I hope. Otherwise the muslims really exaggerate too much.
Muslims should learn to make differents between the innocent people and the real criminals.
The Pope quoted a saying of the Byzantine King Manuel II Pal�ologos in his German visit, which said that Mohammed only did wrong things in his life. |
I heard that , he is proposing to visit Cairo and speak in the Azhar mosque very soon .
Most of our brothers and sisters Arab Christians sent many letters asking him to step down if he didn't apologized and take good action..
Adding oil to fire is not correct specially one week after 9/11 memory. This will add more HATE.
3 or 4 months before he became a pope , he mentioned that Turkey will not accepted to Europe , because Turkey is a Muslim country !!!
Reading from letters back to the 14th centaury has no meaning especially from the top of Christianity ..
KMM.
_________________
LATER I WILL TELL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Europeans have a main religion called Christianity. They see Islam as an competing religion.
That's why he didn't want turkey to be European. Come on, he is a Chistian pope, what do you expect him to say?
He didn't add oil to fire, he only quoted a thing without knowing that it causes so many problems. MUslims should not exaggerate.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
suno0ono
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
Location: UAE
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| pugachevV wrote: |
�Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.�
"By their fruits shall ye know them."
Jesus of Nazareth |
Tell me....when was this statment wrote? 20 years ago? 50 years, 500
years, or 2006 years ago?
because it says prophets. while there is only one prophet after Jesus(Peace Be Upen Him)
I don't think if you hear bad things about someone you love so much.... you will stay calm... with no reaction |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well... It is evident that I have to repeat that when you quote a medieval thinker you are absolutely never supposed to agree with him, as you cannot have a medieval point of view... If I quoted a medieval thinker for his ideas on politics, for example, I would not be supposed to believe that the sun goes around the Earth and so on...
| ad-miral wrote: |
The Pope quoted a saying of the Byzantine King Manuel II Pal�ologos in his German visit, which said that Mohammed only did wrong things in his life. |
...And the Pope did not quote that part of Pal�ologos's thoughts. Just a part that condamns "holy wars", and Palaologos himself puts Islam's "jihad" as an example. Emmanuel II Pal�ologos, like every Christian in those times, believed Islam to be just an heresy, and for this condemned muslims, like any Christian did. Nowadays it is considered a religion for everyone!
Another example:
Dante Alighieri, as we all know, is one of the most important writers and thinkers ever lived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante
In his Divine Comedy, one of the biggest masterpieces ever written by man, still a source of inspiration (remind just T.S.Eliot), he puts Muhammad in hell as an heretic, describes muslims as a foul crew (III,15) and puts the crusaders in Paradise.
Should we not read the Divine Comedy anymore? 
| suno0ono wrote: |
| pugachevV wrote: |
�Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.�
"By their fruits shall ye know them."
Jesus of Nazareth |
Tell me....when was this statment wrote? 20 years ago? 50 years, 500
years, or 2006 years ago? |
What are talking about??? It does not mean that it is not still valid!  or we wouldn't read anymore Socrates or Shakespeare!
| suno0ono wrote: |
| because it says prophets. while there is only one prophet after Jesus(Peace Be Upen Him) |
Well, I personally do not agree with Pugachev, but in that sentence Jesus refers to his days prophets, that means you should beware of prophets in any times! If you beware of prophets, it does not mean that you have only to beware in "more than one"!
| suno0ono wrote: |
I don't think if you hear bad things about someone you love so much.... you will stay calm... with no reaction |
first: What has exactly been said (and not by a medieval thinker), or what has even been quoted of so offensive?
second: You can't rationally react now against what was said 600 years ago, expecially if there is nobody that thinks in that way anymore!
third: No reaction... Well, that's exactly what the whole Christian world is doing!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigOz
' (P:)/flyiHelmetSm.jpg)
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 12
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| suno0ono wrote: |
| pugachevV wrote: |
�Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.�
"By their fruits shall ye know them."
Jesus of Nazareth |
Tell me....when was this statment wrote? 20 years ago? 50 years, 500
years, or 2006 years ago?
because it says prophets. while there is only one prophet after Jesus(Peace Be Upen Him)
I don't think if you hear bad things about someone you love so much.... you will stay calm... with no reaction |
I agree with sunoOono, it is this kind of slander that breeds supporters for trerrorism which is currenntly affecting the muslim countries more than the west (and causing more deaths)!
As for
| Quote: |
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.�
"By their fruits shall ye know them."
|
I believe Jews (Jewish being the first religion believing in one God) denounced Jesus and Christianity on similar lines - did they not?
Finally I suggest all the gibberish about Ottomans and muslims getting insulted by what is mutually agreed by most adult population as very offensive - hence the apologies from Pope - should stop because it serves no purpose!
Muslims have every right to be offended when the name of their prophet is used in vain by a leader of another faith even if it is just a quotation. No one has come up with any meaningful explanation of WHY the Pope felt he had to quote such a statement by whomever.
How would the practising Christians feel, if a chief Muslim cleric was to quote from some (crank) writer's book (and believe me they do exist), who may have said "Virgin mary - virgin my arse - she was having an affair with the inn keeper and Jesus was an illigitimate child as in s.o.b."
But most muslim (true) clerics would not even dare use such a language, because they would be offending their own beliefs as well as those of Christians. Hence we come back to why there is no justification in such quotes...
_________________
Pilots fly you higher - Live and Let Live |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigOz wrote: |
No one has come up with any meaningful explanation of WHY the Pope felt he had to quote such a statement by whomever.
|
To condamn holy wars, holy wars fought 2000, 1000, 500 years ago like nowadays.
Why quoting someone who was talking about another faith? Because God is one for all. And no one has the right to strumentalize God, even if called with another name, to make war. Christians like muslims...
And maybe he wanted to attack nowadays-islamic-terrorism and criticize some islamic fundamentalist views... enriching the speech with an old historical font. Can't he?
| bigOz wrote: |
How would the practising Christians feel, if a chief Muslim cleric was to quote from some (crank) writer's book (and believe me they do exist), who may have said "Virgin mary - virgin my arse - she was having an affair with the inn keeper and Jesus was an illigitimate child as in s.o.b."
But most muslim (true) clerics would not even dare use such a language, because they would be offending their own beliefs as well as those of Christians. Hence we come back to why there is no justification in such quotes... |
And there's no point in this, because the Pope didn't use such a language! Did he? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Because something was written a long time ago does not mean it is not wise.
Mohammed wrote his stuff 1400 years ago and no doubt you think that is all wonderful and wise? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigOz
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 12
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| pugachevV wrote: |
Because something was written a long time ago does not mean it is not wise.
Mohammed wrote his stuff 1400 years ago and no doubt you think that is all wonderful and wise? |
You have to do more reading and learning before making such crak remarks!
Neither Mohammed nor Jesus wrote their "stuff". If you read carefully what I wrote earlier, it stated that both Koran and more than dozen different versions of Bible were written hundreds of years after these prophets existed!
You are coming accross as a religious fanatic yourself by condoning the contents of Pope's speech - and just as dangerous as the muslim fundamentalist extreemists! The person who made those remarks quoted by Pope was kissing Ottoman ass afterwards to stay alive and even praised them! A historical fact which the Pope felt eas not worth mentioning perhaps?
And what gave so much credit to a Roman or Byzantine ruler, who themselves were nothing but savages, hell bent on destroying other nations and faiths, throughout their miserable existence!
| Quote: |
Eduardo...
And maybe he wanted to attack nowadays-islamic-terrorism and criticize some islamic fundamentalist views... enriching the speech with an old historical font. Can't he?
|
Of course he can, but you are missing few important point here!
Firstly stop making excuses to something he did wrong - if he was not, he would not have apologised. If he was criticising "some islamic fundamentalist views..." as you put it, he should have expressed so, rather than making a very generic statement. In another post I listed some of the muslim dominated countries for all to see, majority of which have nothing to do with fundamentalist terrorism or Sharia Law. It is like calling all Christians terrorists because of the Protestant/Catholic divide in Ireland and the terrorist activities that followed.
For the attention of all those fools who want to believe this is a war between muslims and christians here is a factual list of terrorist activities since the invasion of Iraq:
May 12, 2003 - Attacks at expatriate compounds in Riyadth, Saudi Arabia, kill 30.
May 16, 2003 - multiple suicide bombings in Casablanca, Morocco kill 45
Nov. 15 and 20, 2003 - Bomb attacks in Istanbul Turkey leave 60 dead
March 11, 2004 - 191 people are killed when bombs explode on trains in Madrid
September 9, 2004 - a vehicle bomb explodes in Jakarta, Indonesia killing 9 and injuring 100
October 8, 2004 - Explosions in Taba Egypt kill 30.
July 7, 2005 - four explosions in London kill 52 and injure 700
_________________
Pilots fly you higher - Live and Let Live |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| ...And the Pope did not quote that part of Pal�ologos's thoughts. Just a part that condamns "holy wars", and Palaologos himself puts Islam's "jihad" as an example. Emmanuel II Pal�ologos, like every Christian in those times, believed Islam to be just an heresy, and for this condemned muslims, like any Christian did. Nowadays it is considered a religion for everyone! |
I believe in German news, and it said that the Pope quoted that part.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
