Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Sarraa]

[ad-miral]

yeah ok, this is a good reason from a believer's point of view. But to me however, saying "God exists" is like saying "there are extraterritial life out there". You don't know and you only hope.
If something has'nt been proved yet, then at least for me, I think it's better to treat it as nonexistent. But of course I accept you to have your point's of view.

I only think that we shouldn't use God for making agressive wars... Look at Bush: "God told me to go to Iraq and free the millions of people living under suppression, I have done it!"

[Sarraa]

ad-miral, look around you- at the nature around you, the plants and creatures around you, look at yourself. If you say God doesn't exist, then you must have another explanation for the existence of the universe, and the existence of your own self (your heart, your organs, your mind, your body system) and everyone and everything around you?

[ad-miral]

It is very complicated to tell. First I want to tell something about Evolution:
The human today is called homo sapiens sapiens. But the science says it is not something that God created. Look here http://www.egbeck.de/skripten/13/bs13-40.htm and scroll to the end.
This is how science thinks human genes changed.

The same with flowers. (Also evolution) A pink rose exists because we mix a red and a white rose. So the various arts of trees must be because many different tree-genes are mixed together.

The scientifical explantion of how the universe came up is the big-bang-theory. It says that the universe grows. But it doesn't grow constantly, and sometimes there are concentrations with more masses and concentration with less masses. The concentrations with more masses grow to a planet by the time.

The big bang theory can explain many phenomenons like the redshift, or the elements in space (H2, 2H, and isotpes of He), which seems more suitable for me than the God-theory.

Back to topic, I think you can't exactly say which thing is most important because everything is quite important. Money makes us not to live in poverty, love makes us happy, friends supports us in our everyday life, hobbies make us happy.

[RedRose]

[Yinglish]

[ad-miral]

Ohhhhhh... I miss stellara so much! She is the only one who understands the scientific things I talk about.

Thanks for the article you gave us, Yinglish Your point is very very interesting! More understandable, much better than mine.

Maybe we do need religion, or a belief, for the bad days in our life. That we shouldn't brake down, take drugs, do suicide... But, I think religion is like love. If we really love someone, we can't set "love" as the most important thing in life. Because our life is more important. "To love" means to give, we can only give what we already have. To make us having something, we have to learn, to earn money, to grow up.

If we love our girlfriend stupidly, we will give her the most expensive jewels, rings, necklaces. As a reward from her, we demand love. Why this is stupid, is because our girlfriend is not something which we posses. And by buying expensive things for her, we only make the first move of possessing, of making her to an inseperable part of you.

We rather feel happy because we have a girlfriend. And we try to do the real important things, earning money, etc. more efficiently. And that's why love is important! However, the conclusion is: We can only treat love as a minor matter, but love is the most wonderful minor matter in this world.

The same goes for the love according to God, I guess. The difference is that a girlfriend can also give you a beautiful night etc., and God can't give anything to you.
Contrary, some people think that you are more gracious if you love God, because you give love without taking. I personally think this is stupid. For me God doesn't exist.

[beancurdturtle]

[beancurdturtle]

[ad-miral]

[Sarraa]

[ad-miral]

wow... This is really a lot of text, Sarraa... I don't have time to answer all words, but I want to answer to some quotations.

[Yinglish]

May I recommend a short article on this fascinating topic of religion, existence of God, and the Theory of Evolution? It addresses all relevant questions we are discussing.

If you don't have much time, you can skip over to the headings named: Confusing Evolution With God, Evolution and Religion

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=evolution&gwp=13

[beancurdturtle]

Arguing evolution versus creation (which requires a God) is a useless thing to do.

The belief in evolution is based on a theory that is supported by scientific research. It is not 100% proven. Though it is well enough supported by evidence that most people who construct their framework for reality in reason and logic can readily accept it.

The belief in existence of God and creation (including heaven and hell) is based in deep faith in a given mythology. A believer - though there is no logic, reason, or evidence to prove it - will say that the existence of the earth and the fact that they draw breath is proof that God exists. This is because they construct their framework for reality in faith.

When it comes right down to it, either belief is reasonable when you accept the rule-set or mythology that supports the framework.

Frankly, I can accept and respect people regardless of their beliefs. Especially if their belief helps them be accepting and respectful of other people regardless of belief.

We all experience the same things - and have the same base motivations - at the root of existence. The beliefs - science or religion - are the abstractions that provide comfort because so many people need an explanation for everything (fear of the unknown).

Why is the argument useless? Because personal contentment and peace - and peace among all peoples - are so much easier to achieve when we simply accept that the myriad things (万物) just are - rather than needing to answer why they are.

老子:「道德经」:第三十八章

上德不德，是以有德﹔
下德不失德，是以无德。

上德无为而无以为﹔
下德无为而有以为。

上仁为之而无以为﹔
上义为之而有以为。

上礼为之而莫之应，
则攘臂而扔之。

故失道而后德，失德而后仁，
失仁而后义，失义而后礼。

夫礼者，忠信之薄，而乱之首。
前识者，道之华，而愚之始。

是以大丈夫处其厚，不居其薄﹔
处其实，不居其华。故去彼取此。

Laozi, Dao de Jing: Chapter 38
Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.

Harmony does not care for harmony, and so is naturally attained;
But ritual is intent upon harmony, and so can not attain it.

Harmony neither acts nor reasons;
Love acts, but without reason;
Justice acts to serve reason;
But ritual acts to enforce reason.

When the Way is lost, there remains harmony;
When harmony is lost, there remains love;
When love is lost, there remains justice;
And when justice is lost, there remains ritual.

Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Belief is a colourful hope or fear,
The beginning of folly.

The sage goes by harmony, not by hope;
He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;
He accepts substance, and ignores abstraction.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[Bob S.]

_________________
"It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood." -- Karl Popper