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atmsci
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Tokyo
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 Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Yasukuni |
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| element105 wrote: |
| Hah,and you always try to forget that yasukuni shrine also has the places for war criminals such as beast hideki tojo,etc..When you pray at the shrine,you stab knife at our heart,bleeding us again and again.After that,you call for our respect and criticize that we pretend to be victims,isn't that ridiculous??? |
Then tell me why China only started to kick up a fuss about Yasukuni in the mid 80s. It was not such an issue for a long time after the end of WWII. Do you really think that religious people like Dalai Lama XIV went to Yasukuni to worship war criminals? Most pray for peace and specifically state that such a war should never happen again. Other countries have many monuments to remember the soldiers who died in battle. When a country is on the losing side of the war, the desire of the people is no different to remember the sacrifices of the soldiers who lost their lives in the fighting is no different. After all, Yasukuni do not seem to bother America and Allied winners in WWII, even though they also suffered under the Japanese and Koreans during the war. |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Yasukuni |
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| atmsci wrote: |
Then tell me why China only started to kick up a fuss about Yasukuni in the mid 80s. It was not such an issue for a long time after the end of WWII. Do you really think that religious people like Dalai Lama XIV went to Yasukuni to worship war criminals? Most pray for peace and specifically state that such a war should never happen again. Other countries have many monuments to remember the soldiers who died in battle. When a country is on the losing side of the war, the desire of the people is no different to remember the sacrifices of the soldiers who lost their lives in the fighting is no different. After all, Yasukuni do not seem to bother America and Allied winners in WWII, even though they also suffered under the Japanese and Koreans during the war. |
You should know clearer than me about why people started condemning the visiting of yasukuni shrine in 80s.Let me reveal some:since 80s,Japanese politicians gradually started visiting yasukuni shrine in formally by which we figured out that the Japanese government had get closed to militarism again.Now do you get it?
Then let me ask you something.Why don't you remove the graves of war criminals out of the shrine?Why don't you legislate laws to forbid whitewashing of your past sins?Why don't you investgate past sins then compensating the surviving WWII labors and comfort women?
And don't say that "yasukuni do not seem to bother America and Allied winners in WWII",you've forgotten that China was also one of allied winners in WWII,and China had lost a largest amounts of citizen life among the allies during the 8-year-anti-Japanese war. Why not count S.Korea whom has condemned your recent acts either?
To the people whom don't understand the hurt to us of Japanese's act of visiting at yasukuni shrine,please imagine that:Germany government puts graves of Hitler,Goebbels,Himmler,etc. such war criminals into a shrine,then the prime minister and other politicians worship at the shrine annually and formally for the dead,of course they call it a custom,but what do you think about that and what will you and your government do next?Stay silent and pay your understanding?
BTW,many of the dead soldiers were executioners,rapists,metamorphic killers in dealing with the innocents,they were supposed enjoying in killing women after raping them,torturing innocents before beheading them,and I don't want to show too much of the disgusting cases here. |
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ateeq
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mr.Admiral wrote: |
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"Wherever the Japanese army went, they burned, killed, stole and plundered," the book says. "There was no wickedness they didn't commit."
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That's right, and if you want to say that's not right, than you are a liar. |
Hello Admiral:
I agree with you,exactly everyone should accept the reality.And those who don't accept it, are criminal.......
All the best!
_________________
Peace Seeker! |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Yasukuni |
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| element105 wrote: |
| And don't say that "yasukuni do not seem to bother America and Allied winners in WWII",you've forgotten that China was also one of allied winners in WWII,and China had lost a largest amounts of citizen life among the allies during the 8-year-anti-Japanese war. Why not count S.Korea whom has condemned your recent acts either? |
Well, while China was on the winning side of the war, I think it was denied that catharsis of justice through a true victory. The efforts of the Chinese partisans were not trivial, but it was the Russian army coming in from Siberia and the Allied forces moving in from the Pacific that finally crushed the Japanese Empire. The U.S. got its vengence and justice for Pearl Harbor by smashing and incinerating Japanese cities (and people). So with vengence satisfied, it is less offended by any Japanese politicians or old warriors still trying to venerate the dead evil butchers. China and Korea never got their pound of flesh in payment for all they suffered. So it is still an open wound.
The Japanese today may not appreciate just how sensitive an issue this is. From their perspective, they were already punished (beaten down, humiliated, their cities nuked) for the imperialistic forays of their ancestors. So they might imagine why can't everyone just let it go? If you were justly punished for some crime, seen the errors of your ways, and made efforts to reform, wouldn't you get tired of people throwing it in your face at every opportunity?
That being said, I have to wonder if this issue is only kept alive by the Chinese government for political purposes or do the Chinese people really want to see an attitude of sincere remorse in the Japanese people. If the latter, then consider this: it is part of the Japanese custom and culture to make regular prayers for the souls of the dead. If you visit Japan, you can visit many shrines for the souls of various emperors and shrines for the people killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. When Japanese tourists go to Hawaii, they will often visit the U.S.S. Arizona to pray for the souls of the men entombed there. Hey, it's part of who they are. If Beijing or Nanking or Shanghai had Buddhist temples or shrines dedicated to the victims of the war, you could attract Japanese tourists (who also come to see the Great Wall) to visit and pray for the souls of your ancestors murdered by their ancestors. It would be a better opportunity to teach about the horrors of the past and build bridges of understanding and far more positive than throwing bottles at Japanese expats. |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Yasukuni |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
| Well, while China was on the winning side of the war, I think it was denied that catharsis of justice through a true victory. The efforts of the Chinese partisans were not trivial, but it was the Russian army coming in from Siberia and the Allied forces moving in from the Pacific that finally crushed the Japanese Empire. The U.S. got its vengence and justice for Pearl Harbor by smashing and incinerating Japanese cities (and people)...... |
Bob,I dont think you know China battle well.KMT was the pro-force against Japanese army while CCP was fighting in form of partisan.Their cooperation resulted in that Japanese army had no enough military strength to converging attack Russia from east with Germany and to loot pacific region.
Now,this issue is not listed by us but by Japanese themselves.Suppose you read my post carefully you would have known what I mean.And if you considered my previous assumption which replaces Japan with Germany,Hirohito with Adolf Hitler what you will think?
Germany government puts graves of Hitler,Goebbels,Himmler,etc. such war criminals into a shrine,then the prime minister and other politicians worship at the shrine annually and formally for the dead,of course they call it a custom,but what do you think about that and what will you and your government do next?Stay silent and pay your understanding?
I'd like to repeat it again though I have repeated it many times that we don't hate general Japanese people at all but only hate the Japanese government and alive war criminals and rightists who are trying to whitewash their past and to deceive the public with their lies,what they have done we'll never forgive just as Mr.Admiral said "That's right, and if you want to say that's not right, than you are a liar." |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| element105 wrote: |
| I'd like to repeat it again though I have repeated it many times that we don't hate general Japanese people at all but only hate the Japanese government and alive war criminals and rightists who are trying to whitewash their past and to deceive the public with their lies,what they have done we'll never forgive... |
I was wondering about that. That did not seem to be your idea when you wrote:
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| You almost change my mind to the regular Japanese people,I thought they were kind and didn't like the bad politicians,now I find it's hardly to think so. |
So I am glad to see your anger has not yet spread to the regular Japanese people.
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| Bob,I dont think you know China battle well.KMT was the pro-force against Japanese army while CCP was fighting in form of partisan.Their cooperation resulted in that Japanese army had no enough military strength to converging attack Russia from east with Germany and to loot pacific region. |
Each country writes its own history that puts itself in the best light, of course. I'd be curious to find an English translation of China's view of history during those years. FWIW, You can see an American perspective on those war years and the decision to use the atomic bomb at this web site:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pacific/index.html
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And if you considered my previous assumption which replaces Japan with Germany,Hirohito with Adolf Hitler what you will think?
...then the prime minister and other politicians worship at the shrine annually and formally for the dead,...but what do you think about that... |
So, just to clarify, are you saying that butchers and mass murderers who are long dead should not receive any honor or respect? I'm not saying one way or the other. Just a simple question. |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
I was wondering about that. That did not seem to be your idea when you wrote:
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What do you think that seemed to be?
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So I am glad to see your anger has not yet spread to the regular Japanese people.
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Yes,my anger and other people's anger are merely focusing on Japanese liars,not on regular Japanese people at all.
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Each country writes its own history that puts itself in the best light, of course. I'd be curious to find an English translation of China's view of history during those years. FWIW, You can see an American perspective on those war years and the decision to use the atomic bomb at this web site:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pacific/index.html
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Not general.This is not only our opinion,the Japanese and Russians have the same opinion too.Such as 信夫清三郎(a Japanese historian,I don't know his English name),Soviet marshal Zakharov,Japanese army general Sugiyama Hajime,etc. all have the same point of view that Japan dived too much armies into China battle which had directly caused that Japan failed to fulfill their strategic plan -- converging attack Russia with Germany.
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So, just to clarify, are you saying that butchers and mass murderers who are long dead should not receive any honor or respect? I'm not saying one way or the other. Just a simple question.
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Do you think Adolf Hitler should be honored and respected or even be forgiven?A simple question likewise. |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| element105 wrote: |
| Bob S. wrote: |
I was wondering about that. That did not seem to be your idea when you wrote:
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What do you think that seemed to be?
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It seemed that your anger was spreading to the average people as well. I am glad I am mistaken.
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Not general.This is not only our opinion,the Japanese and Russians have the same opinion too.Such as 信夫清三郎(a Japanese historian,I don't know his English name),Soviet marshal Zakharov,Japanese army general Sugiyama Hajime,etc. all have the same point of view that Japan dived too much armies into China battle which had directly caused that Japan failed to fulfill their strategic plan -- converging attack Russia with Germany.
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I agree with that. For both Germany and Japan, their reach exceeded their grasp (a useful English expression). Even Japanese Admiral Yamamoto saw the problems with that in his famous quote "We can run wild for six months or a year, but after that I have utterly no confidence. I hope you will try to avoid war with America."
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Do you think Adolf Hitler should be honored and respected or even be forgiven?A simple question likewise. |
My personal opinion is that for such men, their bodies should be burned and their ashes flushed down a toilet. But I am not ruler of the world yet, so I don't get to make such policies. 
I am wondering because, when I was in Beijing, I saw over the entrance to the "Forbidden City" or the great imperial palace, a large portrait of a man. Have you seen it and do you know what I'm refering to? |
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element105
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Tsingtao,China
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
It seemed that your anger was spreading to the average people as well. I am glad I am mistaken.
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I am glad you are understood eventually. 
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I agree with that. For both Germany and Japan, their reach exceeded their grasp (a useful English expression). Even Japanese Admiral Yamamoto saw the problems with that in his famous quote "We can run wild for six months or a year, but after that I have utterly no confidence. I hope you will try to avoid war with America."
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Let's assume that if Japan had had enough strength to attack Russia with Germany,then Russia was occupied by both fascist countries,then Germany would have a good chance and resources to take occupation of Britain island and north Africa,the war would be lead to another direction.I doubt whether we can still sit in front of computer screen,holding a cup of tea in the left hand and discussing issues with other people.
We should honor Chinese armies in the same way as we honor other winners.No one was neglectable.
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My personal opinion is that for such men, their bodies should be burned and their ashes flushed down a toilet. But I am not ruler of the world yet, so I don't get to make such policies.
I am wondering because, when I was in Beijing, I saw over the entrance to the "Forbidden City" or the great imperial palace, a large portrait of a man. Have you seen it and do you know what I'm refering to?
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By mentioning Mao,things get complicated.Not for he was complicated but for it's really complicated to explain our thought to you foreigners who don't know him and Chinese culture well.You in fact don't know how do we judge a man in our unique culture background.In my opinion,I can frankly tell you that everyone is happy to see the failure of Japanese invaders and the founding of PRC,and we appreciate sincerely to Mao,he has opened a door leading to the road of rerise of Chinese nation.On the other hand,almost no body would like to see the occurring of cultural revolution,that was a tragedy.So people have already concluded 70 percent of his policies were merits,else 30 percent were faults.For easy to your understanding,I guess it's not fulsome to compare Mao to Napoleon Bonaparte or Caesar or someone equivalent.
I know what you are wondering to hear from me,but I have to tell you the truth.The gap of distinct ideologies has maked up a lot of misunderstandings,we have been moving on while some of you are still standing in the coldwar world view which makes them try best to find out our current/past faults(even it's so tiny that not worth mention),magnifying them by your strong propaganda by means of which more misunderstandings stem,it's a vicious circle of course.
Back to our topic,you don't think it's acceptable to honor Hitler so I think you don't think it's acceptable to honor Japanese war criminals either,do you? |
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henrryhenrry
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject: Japanese history book is wrong! |
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| Hi, I am a Japanese university�s student. In my opinion, I think Japanese history book is wrong. The bitter truth was not taught to us! Usually, If Japanese student want to know, they must examine it themselves! I think Japanese government doesn�t want to make trouble for that. Certainly, there are a lot of problems to solve. But, Unless Japan began to take action now, this problem would not be solved forever! Then, What can Japanese government do?? First, Japanese government should accept this problem more seriously and apologize to China until they forgive us. Of course, Japanese history book must be changed and be written this truth. |
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Ellie
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 3
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: Japanese history book. |
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Hi. I�m a college student in Japan.
I was so sad when I read some your opinions.
I can understand your opinion surely, but now, what should we do for you?
Of course I know some occurrences what Japanese did to foreign country�s people a long time ago.
I think it was cruel. And I also feel so sorry for foreigners.
But I think these things were not only Japan.
Many people from other countries killed a lot of Japanese, too.
So now, we should understand each other.
And I think we�d better think about a bright future than criticize each other!
I don�t want you forget some bad affair what Japan did to you, no, should remember. I just want you reconsider about this problems.
You might not like Japan or Japanese people.
But we don�t despise you now.
I hope all the people in the world will be happy and I want to live peacefully.
I�m so glad if you understand my opinion. |
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cjq
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's absolutly wrong.I hate Japan the first time I studied in school.
I just can't understand why they can do such an ugly dirty thing .It's impossible for all over the world.   |
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Ellie
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 3
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:22 am Post subject: Japantory History book,right or wrong? |
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I�m so glad that Mr. Admiral understood my opinion!! Thank you very much.
Of course I feel sorry about the things what was Japan did for China.
But if you�ll make Japanese friends someday, do you think that you�ll hate them?
In my opinion, if I�ll have a Chinese friend someday, I want to be a good friend.
I don�t want to discriminate against the race problem.
And Japan and Chinese are both Asian countries.
And we need to each other by various ways.
Trade and so on�
I don�t want you don�t like Japanese individually.
I�m looking forward to your massage. |
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Ellie
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 3
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:39 am Post subject: Japantory History book,right or wrong? |
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I�m so glad that Mr. Admiral understood my opinion!! Thank you very much.
Of course I feel sorry about the things what Japan did to China.
But if you make Japanese friends someday, do you think that you�ll hate
them?
In my opinion, if I have a Chinese friend someday, I want to be a good
friend.
I don�t want to discriminate against the race problem.
And Japan and Chinese are both Asian countries.
And we need each other by various ways.
Trade and so on�
I don�t want you to dislike Japanese in person.
I�m looking forward to your massage. |
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cloudy
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Chinese people love the peace,and so does the whole world people.If Japanese goverment can realize the mistakes they take,and give a apology to it,I think the two country can be good friends.But they didn't.
I think most of the japanese are friendly,but some are not.Those people often hurt Chinese feelings.
I have ever seen a composition in my school.It is said that this composition is writen by a Japanese,some chinese people see it,and translate it into chinese.The composation said Japan is developed country,and Japan don't want to make friend to developing country;Japan will ruin china in 2010(they even made a detailed time-form) and so on.
After seeing it,all of my classmates were angry with it.I don't know if you have seen the composation.But if one person said he will ruin your country,what do you think of it?
A chinese reporter named Shui Junyi has writen a composation,(the composation is about his visit to Japan,and something happened to him )
If you have read it,you will know why lots of chinese don't like Japanese goverment or japanese.
_________________
I love my friends.I hope I can make some friends here. |
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