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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: none |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| ieltsinsider wrote: |
The idea of ignoring personal attacks is very noble, but think about how it pans out. If you ignore personal attacks, people will think that they are true.
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If no references or proof are offered to support a personal attack, why would any discriminating person think a personal attack was true? If the attack is ignored, why would an unfounded assertion (the personal attack) be given any more merit? |
well said  |
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ieltsinsider
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: none |
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Beancurdturtle - Dunno. You tell me. Red Rose is the one who insults people and you are the one who says you like her posts. Go figure!
Unfounded assertions are clearly often given merit. |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: |
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ok, I quote our conversation, maybe then you could recognize your stupidity:
| ieltsinsider, Sat Sep 09, wrote: |
| KHF - If you are looking at how Chinese people deal with 'objective truth', read some more of Red Rose's posts. The answer is, they don't! Americans, for all their faults, are far better at dealing with the truth. |
You said Americans are far better at dealing with the truth. I interpret this sentence such as: Americans are honest, Chinese are liars. Or in another words: "Chinese people are all liars." That is really very ignorant. You conclude all the different Chinese men, independent whether they are truthful or not, as liars. And you say that every American are more truthful than Chinese guys, without any proves. (however, this statement can easily be counted as we look at the non-existing ABC weapons of Iraq) So I said it was ignorant.
| ieltsinsider, Sun Sep 10, wrote: |
| Ad-miral - So you would think I was extremely ignorant if I said that Chinese people are better at table tennis than Zambians? |
And then you said this. From my objective point of view, I would say that "better at table tennis" is a fact, as you can look from championships on TV. It would be better if you add "Chinese national table tennis players are better than Zambian national players".
As a conclusion, the quality at playing table-tennis is a quality which is stated by tournaments.
But being a liar or not can't be generalised. Because you can only say: "This specific guy is a liar, this is not." It's illogical to widen it as a general statement, and if you do it becomes a racist sentence.
So you are wrong. Please be careful in the future with such postings if you don't want to make a fool of yourself.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: |
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All these arguments about: "Why does people critisize ieltsinsider and not redrose" doesn't deal with Chinese culture and should be stopped now.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| ieltsinsider wrote: |
| Beancurdturtle - Dunno. You tell me. Red Rose is the one who insults people and you are the one who says you like her posts. Go figure! |
Come on! you can't stop people loving me!! I am born popular, I just can't help it! believe me, that's not my fault; also, if you are unpopular (it seems to be a truth), that's not your fault either! however, I really don't think you should feel bitter if people like me and my posts, after all, this is a forum where people can talk about anything, except unfounded assertions. so you have to be strong enough to read those comments.
Besides, Admiral loves me too. Maybe you should stop him as well? come on!! so many people love me, do you wanna be energic to stop those people and tell them to stop loving me and making positive comments on me?! no wonder you always look very malicious and tired, it turns out that you still keep your dirty heart/all your self-abasement/your fear in your mind. 
Don't care about who like my posts, please just focus on the discussion, otherwise, you will become more furious.
| ieltsinsider wrote: |
| Unfounded assertions are clearly often given merit |
This is another unfounded assertion you just made.
You make unfounded assertions all the time, then what merit have you got? 
To Admiral
XW, when you talked to ieltsinsider, I felt you were playing music to a cow. (that's a Chinese metaphor, it's nice, no malice) |
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ltp-008
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 258
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
I will answer your questions here. The references and discussion probably belongs in a different thread.
| ltp-008 wrote: |
| It is very interesting that you said that the States [U.S. Government] is better at information control than China,what do you mean? |
Briefly - the U.S. government is more media savvy. They have many media experts on staff. They are good at crafting half truth and information that is easier for people with poor critical thinking and research skills to believe.
| ltp-008 wrote: |
| Do you mean that the State [U.S. Government] doesn't have freedom of press,freedom of speech or something else? |
Yes. To some extent, this is true (try "free speech zones" in google).
| ltp-008 wrote: |
| Do you mean that the States [U.S. Government] censors and filters media contents? |
Yes - and they control events to prevent the story they don't want reported from being noticed.
| ltp-008 wrote: |
| Do you mean that the States [U.S. Government] blocks many oversea Internet Websites? |
No. It's not necessary. 90% of people in the U.S. are hypnotized by television so will never make the effort to find objective information from overseas sources.
| ltp-008 wrote: |
| Do you mean that the states [U.S. Government] don't let media to report break news? |
Yes. The U.S. Government controls (or attempts to control) any news that may make them look bad. If it does get reported, then the U.S. Government does everything it can to discredit the source.
| ltp-008 wrote: |
| Do you mean that the States [U.S. Government] doesn't give freedom for some bad people to commit crime? |
I'm sorry - I don't understand this question.
| ltp-008 wrote: |
| Do you mean that CIA and FBI don't tell you what they are doing when they are investigating some confidential cases? |
Yes, they do not tell. How many years did it take (for example) for George Bush to admit that secret CIA prisons exist in other countries?
| ltp-008 wrote: |
| If you think that the States is worse than China at information control ,you should provide facts or some credible examples comparing with China in these aspects to prove your statements,otherwise you just made a meaningless statement in which showed your trait as extreme leftist . |
This isn't the thread for an in-depth discussion of the shortcomings of the Bush Administration. My statements have meaning, and I can deliver documentation if I think it's necessary. Here I am just offering my opinion based on things I know to be true.
I am not an extreme leftist. I am a fiscal and domestic policy conservative - whereas the Bush administration is full of radicals. And I am a foreign and social policy progressive - whereas the Bush Administration is full of faith and ideology blinded reactionaries. |
| Quote: |
I will answer your questions here. The references and discussion probably belongs in a different thread.
ltp-008 wrote:
It is very interesting that you said that the States [U.S. Government] is better at information control than China,what do you mean?
Briefly - the U.S. government is more media savvy. They have many media experts on staff. They are good at crafting half truth and information that is easier for people with poor critical thinking and research skills to believe. |
the US government is comprised of three branches which include executive branch,judicial branch and legislative branch ,there are a check and balance among them,if the executive branch doesn't want to tell the truth to the public ,both the houses of congress have many committees which they can check the truth ,even though as you said that there are many media experts on the executive branch,there are many independent media in the US which they own many best media experts to analyze what the executive has said,so the mainstream of the US meida cann't be cheated easily by the executive branch.
But China is ruled by only one party -the communist party,there are not check and balance there,all the media are controlled by the Chinese communist regime,there are not oppositive political opinions being heard in China.Just yesterday China has announced new controls over the distribution of news by foreign news agencies, further restricting foreign access to the already tightly regulated Chinese media market. If you realy want to know how the Chinese controls information,this is the link:http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/09/10/china.newscontrols.ap/index.html
I don't think that most of Americans lack of smart critical thinking and research skills,most of Americans are well educated no matter whether they are Republicans or Democrats.
| Quote: |
ltp-008 wrote:
Do you mean that the State [U.S. Government] doesn't have freedom of press,freedom of speech or something else?
Yes. To some extent, this is true (try "free speech zones" in google). |
Very funny,there are many independent meida in the US which they are not controlled by the government,it is sure that some media may lean to the Republic or the Democratic party ,but there are alway some media in the US which are willing to report the truth to the public,the executive branch doesn't have any power to stop them from publishing the truth.
About the freedom of speech,what kinds of freedom of speech do you still want?If you were in China,what you had criticized the government of the US instead of the government of China,you would probably be in trouble or be sent to jail in China.You should have been very satisfied of US government by comparing with Chinese.
| Quote: |
ltp-008 wrote:
Do you mean that the States [U.S. Government] censors and filters media contents?
Yes - and they control events to prevent the story they don't want reported from being noticed. |
Very funny again,I have never heard that the US government has the power to censor and filter meida contents,the executive branch may not want something being noticed by the public ,but the indepedent media in the US would try every means to get the information,do you remember Watergate accident?Nixon was forced to resign by two young journalists back then,this is powerful evidence what kinds of the freedom of press and speech in the US have ,what more do you still want?
The best way which the White House can influence US media is its press conferences which are held a few times each week.But most of the time the press secretary or sometimes the presidents is forced to answer some sharp questions by correspondents .
I would like to ask you how often the Chinese government (except for foreign department) has press conferences,maybe once or twice a year? Why so few?because the Chinese government doesn't necessarily need to influence Chinese media,they are all the slaves of communist regime,if they dare not obey to its propagandas ,the reporters and journalists will be fired or in some cases be sent into prisons . This is the main difference between the US and China .
| Quote: |
ltp-008 wrote:
Do you mean that the States [U.S. Government] blocks many oversea Internet Websites?
No. It's not necessary. 90% of people in the U.S. are hypnotized by television so will never make the effort to find objective information from overseas sources. |
I don't think 90 percent of people in the U.S are hypnotized by television,why they are willing to watch America television is that they believe in the media in the US ,America media usually tell the truth to the public,otherwise these media which don't have high reputation cann't be survived in the drastic competition of meida in the US.
But Chinese government blocks many oversea Internet websites,it is fact.
| Quote: |
ltp-008 wrote:
Do you mean that the states [U.S. Government] don't let media to report break news?
Yes. The U.S. Government controls (or attempts to control) any news that may make them look bad. If it does get reported, then the U.S. Government does everything it can to discredit the source. |
I have never heard that the US government can effectively control any news even though they want to control or attempt to control.Why the US
government can't control break news is that independent reporters or journalists would do their best to find the break news ,they don't consider whether or not the US government want to report them,they just want to report the break news to the public,this is their noble duty as journalists by the law.
But Chinese government controls break news such as SARS and the poisonous chemical pollution in their river.
| Quote: |
ltp-008 wrote:
Do you mean that CIA and FBI don't tell you what they are doing when they are investigating some confidential cases?
Yes, they do not tell. How many years did it take (for example) for George Bush to admit that secret CIA prisons exist in other countries? |
Very funny again,you think that the CIA and FBI should tell you what they are doing when they deal with some confidential cases which are related to national security.You will never get these confidential information before they are disclassified unless you are senator or comgressman in some special committee in both houses of congress.
The secret CIA prisons had been reported by independent media a few years ago,this is not a news,these prisoners include 911 main machinator KMS who planned and plotted 911 attacks which killed more than 3000 innocent Americans,the CIA needed him and others to provide information for protecting national security,why should the US government do that kind of stupid things to tell the public where these prisoners were held which would compromise America national security when these captured terrorists still have valuable information ?
But Chinese government will consider you as a spy when you want to know their confidential information,you will be sent to prison when they find your intention.
| Quote: |
ltp-008 wrote:
If you think that the States is worse than China at information control ,you should provide facts or some credible examples comparing with China in these aspects to prove your statements,otherwise you just made a meaningless statement in which showed your trait as extreme leftist .
This isn't the thread for an in-depth discussion of the shortcomings of the Bush Administration. My statements have meaning, and I can deliver documentation if I think it's necessary. Here I am just offering my opinion based on things I know to be true.
I am not an extreme leftist. I am a fiscal and domestic policy conservative - whereas the Bush administration is full of radicals. And I am a foreign and social policy progressive - whereas the Bush Administration is full of faith and ideology blinded reactionaries. |
You made your comments in this thread which you said that the US government is worse than China to control information ,but you didn't provide any credible examples and facts to prove your statements,this thread is about Chinese culture,since you said that the US government is worse than Chinese government to control information,you should back up what you said by comparing what the US government is doing to control information with what Chinese government is doing to control information in their counterpart aspects,by comparison you should have had your comments above,otherwise you just showed that you are not happy with the US government ,but this doesn't make Chinese government a little bit better.
If you want to state the shortcomings of the US government ,you can put another thread to debate them.But remember that there are no perfect government in the world , there are only some best or better or good or bad or worse or worst governments in the world by comparison.
I don't think Bush administratin is full of radicals,I also don't think that Bush Adiminstration is full of faith and ideology blinded reactionaries, what you said just proved that you are the one who is a radical and an extreme liberal .
I also don't think that all Chinese government is doing are wrong,in some extent they work very well,their society is steady,their economy develops pretty well,but every country needs progress,I just as many foreigners hope that China can have much more progress in democracy and human rights.Chinese government itself publicly admits that China needs democratic reforms and need to improve human rights in China although they do that little in reality. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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ltp-008
I wasn't doing a "compare and contrast" exercise between the lack of freedoms in China and false freedoms in the U.S. I was offering my opinion based on a great deal of research and first hand knowledge. I am not trying to bash America, nor am I trying to say China is better than America - I only addressed misinformed opinions that were offered regarding the state of things in the U.S.
I will address just one of your assertions. "I don't think that most of Americans lack of smart critical thinking and research skills, most of Americans are well educated no matter whether they are Republicans or Democrats." First I will grant that you seem to know more about the U.S. Constitution than the majority of American Citizens. But what you don't realize that most Americans are largely ignorant regarding their rights and the way the Federal Government is supposed to operate (I say "supposed to" because the U.S. Government does not operate in accordance with the Constitution).
| Quote: |
A Harris Interactive poll on civics education conducted in July 2005 for the American Bar Association found that many respondents would benefit from a refresher course in U.S. government and constitutional principles. Highlights of the survey's findings:
55 percent of the respondents correctly identified the three branches of government -- legislative, executive and judicial. More than a fifth of those surveyed, 22 percent, identified the three branches as Republican, Democrat and Independent.
82 percent of the respondents said the concept of separation of powers is "very important" or "important." But only 45 percent correctly identified the meaning of "separation of powers" as "Congress, the president and the federal courts each have different responsibilities."
64 percent of the respondents correctly identified the meaning of "checks and balances" as "a division of power among the branches of federal government that prevents any one of them from going beyond their constitutional authority."
Just under half of the respondents, 48 percent, correctly identified a key responsibility of the judicial branch of government as "determining how existing law applies to the facts of a case." Almost 3 in 10 respondents, 29 percent, said the judicial branch's role is to "advise the president and Congress about the legality of an action they intend to take in the future."
http://alexander.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Articles.Detail&Article_id=112&Month=7&Year=2006
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| Quote: |
Americans apparently know more about �The Simpsons� than they do about the First Amendment. Only one in four Americans can name more than one of the five freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment. But more than half can name at least two members of the cartoon family, according to a survey.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11611015/print/1/displaymode/1098/
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I am an American patriot (though not a chauvinistic nationalist), and I appreciate your enthusiasm and positive impression regarding my country. I am proud of the principles and freedoms on which the U.S. was founded - and the objectives framed in the Constitution. I do deeply wish that your high opinion and glowing perception were factually representative of the state of things in the U.S. - but sadly, this is not the case.
Given the time, I could show that many of the assertions you make are as groundless as the single one I addressed. But:
1. I don't have that much free time;
2. I am not interested in "winning" a pointless argument (I already know the truth);
3. Let me offer this cliche phrase, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
Peace,
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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Pommezani
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 231
Location: France
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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i just have a little question... I don't want a debate, but it's just a very simple and innocent question... we are talking a lot now about the truth about Irak etc, but did it happen that the press and governements talk about the actions of us government in south and central america? cause i studied the contemporary history of those countries, and I leanrt a lot of crazy things about that, but i don't remember having heard talking about that "publicly" (is that an english word?  ).. so that's my question... is it known, the interventions of USA in South and central America? |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Very little known about the military and social interventions of the U.S. Government in Central and South America by the general population in the U.S.
If it is taught, it is only taught superficially and as if it were in the past. Like for example Roosevelt facilitating the independence of Panama to gain the Panama Canal Treaty might be taught - but as an unimportant side item in the overall Panama Canal story.
Most of the past shameful acts and current clandestine actions are not taught in history courses, and not covered in the media.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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ltp-008
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 258
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
beancurdturtle wrote:
Let me offer this cliche phrase, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." |
I also give your the same phrase which you offered to me:you can lead a horse to water,but you can't make him drink.  |
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Pommezani
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 231
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:41 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for answering me! I let you continue on China.. it's a forum about China...  |
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