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suno0ono
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 7
Location: UAE
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 Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Edoardo wrote: |
What are talking about??? It does not mean that it is not still valid!  or we wouldn't read anymore Socrates or Shakespeare!
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You understand me backward��.
I mean that if that statement was written in Jesus (Peace be upon him) life, I will have no write to complain because it will be from Allah. Otherwise, you have to check when it was written...After Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) Time or before.
...Moreover, prophets are supporting each other messages.
*Note: I knew that the Bible is different from time to time� so, search for the first one to know the truth
| Edoardo wrote: |
| suno0ono wrote: |
I don't think if you hear bad things about someone you love so much.... you will stay calm... with no reaction |
first: What has exactly been said (and not by a medieval thinker), or what has even been quoted of so offensive?
second: You can't rationally react now against what was said 600 years ago, expecially if there is nobody that thinks in that way anymore!
third: No reaction... Well, that's exactly what the whole Christian world is doing!!! |
| Edoardo wrote: |
Well, I personally do not agree with Pugachev, but in that sentence Jesus refers to his days prophets, that means you should beware of prophets in any times! If you beware of prophets, it does not mean that you have only to beware in "more than one"! |
I refer to Pugachev... when he or she said that the one the statement talked about is Prophet Mohammad (Peace be Upon Him)�. It's too harsh
| Edoardo wrote: |
Christians like Muslims |
It's mentioned in Qur'an that the one who are closest to Muslims are Christians |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| suno0ono wrote: |
I mean that if that statement was written in Jesus (Peace be upon him) life, I will have no write to complain because it will be from Allah. Otherwise, you have to check when it was written...After Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) Time or before.
...Moreover, prophets are supporting each other messages.
*Note: I knew that the Bible is different from time to time� so, search for the first one to know the truth
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This is true only for the islamic faith: while for Muslims the Koran is increated, and so it is static, (and for this the prophets support and repeat themselves each other), for Christians and Jews the Bible is not a "perfect", finished book, but it can change and be interpretated in many different ways, because they think that the revelation is carried on step-by-step and that it depends from history.
Last edited by Edoardo on Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| pugachevV wrote: |
Because something was written a long time ago does not mean it is not wise.
Mohammed wrote his stuff 1400 years ago and no doubt you think that is all wonderful and wise? |
Well.... Old does not mean wise. but there is always a reason if something written 2000 or 1400 years ago has survived until nowadays. I haven't read the Koran, I wish I did... I really don't know if it is "all wonderful..." But I know that many interpretations are not. |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| ad-miral wrote: |
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| ...And the Pope did not quote that part of Pal�ologos's thoughts. Just a part that condamns "holy wars", and Palaologos himself puts Islam's "jihad" as an example. Emmanuel II Pal�ologos, like every Christian in those times, believed Islam to be just an heresy, and for this condemned muslims, like any Christian did. Nowadays it is considered a religion for everyone! |
I believe in German news, and it said that the Pope quoted that part. |
"Muhammad did only bad things in his life"? He can't have said that, otherwise it would be written everywhere!
Last edited by Edoardo on Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: ! |
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| bigOz wrote: |
You are coming accross as a religious fanatic yourself by condoning the contents of Pope's speech - and just as dangerous as the muslim fundamentalist extreemists!
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The Pope dangerous!?!? Kow many people has he killed until now? Does he own any weapon? How is he menacing us? What has he said, that frightens you? Tell me! I really want to know!!! 
| bigOz wrote: |
The person who made those remarks quoted by Pope was kissing Ottoman ass afterwards to stay alive and even praised them! A historical fact which the Pope felt eas not worth mentioning perhaps?
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Yeah, it was not a sermon about medieval politics... you don't have to tell always the full biography of the person you quote! 
| bigOz wrote: |
And what gave so much credit to a Roman or Byzantine ruler, who themselves were nothing but savages, hell bent on destroying other nations and faiths, throughout their miserable existence!
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this is just your racist xenofobic opinion!
| bigOz wrote: |
| Quote: |
And maybe he wanted to attack nowadays-islamic-terrorism and criticize some islamic fundamentalist views... enriching the speech with an old historical font. Can't he?
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Of course he can, but you are missing few important point here!
Firstly stop making excuses to something he did wrong - if he was not, he would not have apologised. If he was criticising "some islamic fundamentalist views..." as you put it, he should have expressed so, rather than making a very generic statement.
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He has never apologised, nor said he was wrong. As I said, he cannot do it.
He did just say: (the traslation, from Italian, is mine...)
<<...I'm sorry to hear, with my much regret, that the quotation I used [during the lectio magistralis] has been heavly misunderstood... Futhermore, it was by a medieval philosopher, which does not reflect my personal opinion...>>
(lectio magistralis -- latin = magistral lesson)
One more thing: Popes do never accuse something or someone in particular, but always make generic statements. You'll not find a Pope blaming someone in public, even if it's the worst person ever...
| bigOz wrote: |
In another post I listed some of the muslim dominated countries for all to see, majority of which have nothing to do with fundamentalist terrorism or Sharia Law. It is like calling all Christians terrorists because of the Protestant/Catholic divide in Ireland and the terrorist activities that followed.
For the attention of all those fools who want to believe this is a war between muslims and christians here is a factual list of terrorist activities since the invasion of Iraq:
May 12, 2003 - Attacks at expatriate compounds in Riyadth, Saudi Arabia, kill 30.
May 16, 2003 - multiple suicide bombings in Casablanca, Morocco kill 45
Nov. 15 and 20, 2003 - Bomb attacks in Istanbul Turkey leave 60 dead
March 11, 2004 - 191 people are killed when bombs explode on trains in Madrid
September 9, 2004 - a vehicle bomb explodes in Jakarta, Indonesia killing 9 and injuring 100
October 8, 2004 - Explosions in Taba Egypt kill 30.
July 7, 2005 - four explosions in London kill 52 and injure 700
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I don't think there is a war between Muslim and Christians. I don't think Islam to be a terrorist religion. But I don't even know what you want to mean with this out-of-topic list... And talking about this war Iraq... I does find no point in this discussion... |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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I think I should say something concerning this:
You have a work to do, with work you earn money, with money you buy food, which keeps your stomach safe, with money you buy television, computer and car to easy your life.
With labouring in work, you can easy your life. This is REAL
With believing in some mental disease like "God", which is nothing else than a THOUGHT, you can't even buy a biscuit!
You say the Pope is dangerous, you say Islam is dangerous. But you know what? The most dangerous thing is your little brain, hating something which doesn't exist.
You, the Koran fanatics, the Bible fanatics (who exist in USA, as I heared in the news. Some Christian fanatics who send their children to such schools. There was a interview with such a kid, in all his answers he refers to the Bible, he seems very dead for me)
Most sane people don't want to care about you thinking this but I do because I believe in wonder
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Edoardo wrote: |
| "Muhammad did only bad things in his life"? He can't have said that, otherwise it would be written everywhere! |
If you only believe what is written everywhere then you should think what everyone said about jews in the Nazi regime.
I feel tired talking to you all all the time that religion is air and that it's stupid to discuss so much about and do so much concerning air. Putting newspaper before neighbour's house is even more useful than it.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love
Last edited by ad-miral on Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: ! |
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| Edoardo wrote: |
| bigOz wrote: |
And what gave so much credit to a Roman or Byzantine ruler, who themselves were nothing but savages, hell bent on destroying other nations and faiths, throughout their miserable existence!
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this is just your racist xenofobic opinion!.. |
Not entirely. 1400 years from its inception, Christendom was also being spread by the sword and other more horrific means. But here at the beginning of the 21st century, Christianity has evolved with the rest of society where it is promenant to where no one, not even its most ardent practitioners, could imagine forced conversions to any religion (except Ann Coulter and even she was just joking maybe). Sadly Islam hasn't reached that stage yet and appears through much of the world mired in its own humorless primitive dark ages. One has to wonder how many more centuries will pass before Kafir are allowed to freely enter Mecca just as non-Christians may freely enter the Vatican City today. 
_________________
"It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood." -- Karl Popper |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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ohgod I bet someone could delete all this religious things here in ESL cafe, it's like making war because one doesn't like Harry Potter.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:10 am Post subject: Re: ! |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
| Edoardo wrote: |
| bigOz wrote: |
And what gave so much credit to a Roman or Byzantine ruler, who themselves were nothing but savages, hell bent on destroying other nations and faiths, throughout their miserable existence!
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this is just your racist xenofobic opinion!.. |
Not entirely. 1400 years from its inception, Christendom was also being spread by the sword and other more horrific means. But here at the beginning of the 21st century, Christianity has evolved with the rest of society where it is promenant to where no one, not even its most ardent practitioners, could imagine forced conversions to any religion (except Ann Coulter |
oh... please... you cannot sintetyze a whole millenium calling it "Dark Age"... this is pure ignorance.
With violence many peoples have been converted from Christians of every sort (Orthodoxes, Catholics, Luterans, Calvinists, Anglicans...) and many Heresies have been deleted (Cathars, Gnostics, Lullians...) for over 1000 years, until 1700s maybe...
...And then? Do you want to describe one of the most part of a whole Civilization with the Inquisition, or the witch-hunting?
You can't say they (that were what we were!) were savages: you make the same error that do people who think that muslims are all terrorists.
DarkAge is a term invented by Enlighteners to put themselves in opposition (Dark = no light) to that age... Using this terminology now is at least anachronistic. Futhermore, it does not exist anything, nation, people, age, culture, form of state, that you can define "all bad" or "all good".
Can a savage write The Divine Comedy, or The Hamlet?Can a savage build Notre Dame, or St Peter? Can a savage draw The Last Supper, the Sistin Chapel? Can he sculpt the Piety? Can he study and envelope Philosophy? Can a savage discover new Elements, new Worlds, new Planets? Can he invent new Sciences? Can a savage organize Nations?
All these things were done far before the XVIII Century... It's also from all these things that our "West" comes from. Yeah, right, in those times forced convertions were an habit and democracy was just an old word. But if you think also about the rest, (the stuff I mentioned above), they become just a little part of it. Political necessities, that's it.
Last edited by Edoardo on Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:34 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| ad-miral wrote: |
| Edoardo wrote: |
| "Muhammad did only bad things in his life"? He can't have said that, otherwise it would be written everywhere! |
If you only believe what is written everywhere then you should think what everyone said about jews in the Nazi regime.
I feel tired talking to you all all the time that religion is air and that it's stupid to discuss so much about and do so much concerning air. Putting newspaper before neighbour's house is even more useful than it. |
 But we haven't got the Nazi regime.
Religion is not the topic of this thread. But when you're talking about liberties you have got to mention it... |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: Re: ! |
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| Edoardo wrote: |
Futhermore, it does not exist anything, nation, people, age, culture, form of state, that you can define "all bad" or "all good".
Can a savage write The Divine Comedy, or The Hamlet?Can a savage build Notre Dame, or St Peter?... |
Which begs the question of what is a savage? A person who acts savagely 100% of the time? How about 50% of the time? 5%? If a man eats human babies but paints beautiful pictures, is he a savage? Even Mussolini made the trains run on time. Would it still be fair to label him a savage? |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Religion is not the topic of this thread. But when you're talking about liberties you have got to mention it |
If we talk about liberty between religion we should try to accept each other's religion, not listening up what mistakes societies of other religions made.
That's my point.
Isn't it savage to invade a peaceful country like Vietnam, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran for reasons like "North Vietnamese destroyed a ship of us" (but in the reality nobody destroyed that ship) or for reasons like "Saddam has nuclear weapons" (noone find any, and I have to mention both Saddam and Bin Laden were very good friends of Bush)?
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Can a savage write The Divine Comedy, or The Hamlet?Can a savage build Notre Dame, or St Peter?... |
Can a savage write books like "thousand and one nights"?
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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CP
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Bob S.: You wrote:
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| Even Mussolini made the trains run on time. Would it still be fair to label him a savage? |
According to a reliable source, that is just a myth. According to snopes.com, Mussolini took credit for a poor system that was slightly improved before he took power, but the trains didn't really run on time under his dictatorship.
See http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.htm
(I know it's not the main topic . . . . )
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb |
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