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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
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haha!
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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Yinglish
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Bob S. wrote: |
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Agree. We do need some levity here. May I offer you a bow for bringing such just in time.
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
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 Well, it got too theoretical |
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Sarraa
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Leicestershire, UK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Hi all 
Ad-miral, you start by saying:
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| Science is the free use of the brain not limited by any other outer forces. |
which is not right. It is lunatics who use their brain freely with no limitations. Science is the exact opposite. Science is the use of the brain based on proven facts, and scientific theories are based on these facts, but with theories you cannot add one upon another, until the first theory is proven with more facts. So you see, science is not 'the free use of the brain not limited by outer forces', it is quite the contrary.
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| Galilei tried hard to prove that the earth spins around the sun, and not the other way round. If there wasn't the Catholic church, his discovery would have been published years earlier. That's why I don't like religion. |
You generalise here. You place all religions into one category. The reason why the Catholic church opposed Galilei's theory, is because some of the Bible's distortion contradicted with it, as a lot of texts in the Bible contradict with other scientific facts, as proven by scientist Maurice Bucaille in his book, The Bible, the Qur'an and Science. However, not all religions are opposed to science. In fact, Islam supports science, and as Baucaille says, science and Islam are like ''twin sisters''. There are many scientific facts mentioned in the Qur'aan (which was sent down 1400 years ago). Here is a website containing some verses of the Qur'aan and scientific explanations. http://www.islamworld.net/it-is-truth/ModernScience.html
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| "God" is "maybe" the one who gave me the chance to meet her. But I will lose her if I don't think about her, but praise God all the day. Can you understand? |
Are you saying that if you believed in God, you would be too preoccupied in worshipping Him and ''praising Him'' that you'll forget to love or think about your own girlfriend? Even God doesn't tell us to forget our loved ones in order to worship Him. In fact, caring for the people we love is good, and is sort of part of 'worshipping' Him (anything we do that pleases God is considered as worshipping Him). But as of your girlfriend, if you were a Muslim you'd have to marry her if you want to carry on a relationship with her  . And I'm sure that would show a great deal of love from your side. : )
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| The belief in evolution is based on a theory that is supported by scientific research. It is not 100% proven. |
While the other half of scientific researches have proven it to be wrong.
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| The belief in existence of God and creation (including heaven and hell) is based in deep faith in a given mythology. A believer - though there is no logic, reason, or evidence to prove it - will say that the existence of the earth and the fact that they draw breath is proof that God exists. |
There is logic, reason and evidence to prove the existence of a Creator, and it is that a mere bang could not have created this universe in such order by chance (along with the evidence from the Qur'an). Where did the gaseous mass come from in the first place? It had to have been created by some One. And don't go through the whole 'how then, was God created?' thing, which is an old argument.
You don't seem to dismiss the idea of eternity, since you believe that this ''gas'' or ''mass'' was eternal, since it couldn't have come from something else because that would prove the existence of a Creator. Or perhaps you believe that the gas came from something, which came from something else, and that came from something else and so on, which would still leave us with eternity.
So why is it so hard to believe that there is an eternal Creator, a God, but it's easy to stick to thinking that a mere gas mass thing created this world?
The reason why it makes more sense that God created this world, and not a gas, is because God thinks, and understands what He is doing, how He meant the universe to function- whereas gas does not, because it is not a living being and does not have a brain, so an explosion that occured from it could not have coincidentially created such a fascinating world.
If a tornado passes by a junkyard, and whirls up scraps of metal and pieces, swirling them round and round, and then stops- would the result of it be a brand new car, new-looking and flawless? And perhaps with the engine running? No, it would not, it would be a worse mess than before. But if you got an engineer who specializes in building cars, he'll be able to do it, because he understands the function of cars and how to get them running etc.
In order for anything proper to be created, the creator needs to understand what he/it is doing and how, and not just mix and jumble up random materials and bang them together- the result would be a mess, and it would never be an amazing system that works wonderously.
You can't expect gas to create things in such detail, mountains, seas, rivers and streams from which we drink, plants, fruits and animal meat from which we eat, our bodies to work the way they do, our mind, our emotions- no more than you can expect a baby to build a house, with it's lavish rooms and furniture.
God, however, knows what He is doing, understands the structure of things. Yes, there was a gaseous mass, perhaps there was a ''Big Bang'', but it was all created by the Al-Mighty Creator. But He was not created from anything. And after all, there will always be something called eternity- if you believe a gas mass created this world, then that mass is eternal, and if you don't think the actual mass was eternal, but that it somehow just materialized from nowhere (in which case there must have been a cause for this- i.e. Creator), there still is the 'eternity' that was before it. Whether or not you believe in the Afterlife, there will still be eternal future, whether the universe comes to an end some day or not. Because there is no such thing as 'nothingness'. So eternity in itself isn't the issue here, it's what is eternal. And disbelievers are content with thinking that we were created by chance, from gases and masses, while believers know that we are here because God created us, and the rest of the universe. After all, how can a mere matter accidentally create everything in this universe for the convenience of the living things in it, including ourselves. Oops, there's water- we can drink from it. Oops, there's the sun- humans, animals and plants see from its light, keep warm from its rays. Oops, there's oxygen- they can breathe from it too. Oops- there 's animal meat, vegetables and fruits we can eat from. Oops- a body system which happens to be able to digest all these things for the convenience of the body. Lungs, which take in the oxygen which happens to be around by chance. The protein the body needs, which happen to be in the food we eat.
No, I will stick to believing my --our-- own God created this fascinating universe, and not a random, simple thingamabob.
In any case, my contribution to this debate was only to prove a few points and my opinion, and not to dig it into anyone's head by force.
[Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things] (Al-Baqarah, 256)
May Allah guide you all : )
_________________
لا إلــه إلا الله مــحــمّد رســول الله |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| It is lunatics who use their brain freely with no limitations. |
You understood me wrong. To live freely, doesn't mean we live in the African jungles like Orang-Utans. To think freely, doesn't mean we close our head for any wisdom outside our brain.
The point is, science is free, in the respect that it doesn't need a quotation from the holy Qur'aan to be valid.
Maybe you are right that the holy Qur'aan contains scientific statements and no doubt Mohammed (peace be upon him) was a very intelligent man. But it is not the reason to knee on the ground lighting candles for him, and it's not the reason to force other guys to light candles etc.
 And, it's no reason to write sooo many lines forcing other users to answer it.
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| [Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things] (Al-Baqarah, 256) |
It's important that YOU know we are all wrong, you don't have the guilty to convert us to moslems or so.
Please don't write so many lines in the future... |
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Yinglish
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| I will stick to believing my --our-- own God created this fascinating universe |
I sincerely respect that. We're not here to change anyone's belief system because it is important to the individual. We can agree to disagree and it is a beautiful thing. It makes a thoughtful and meaningful discussion while improving our English. |
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hoby
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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God should RESPECT this REAL world...
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to think being like this was just a moment in time.... |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Sarraa wrote: |
There is logic, reason and evidence to prove the existence of a Creator, and it is that a mere bang could not have created this universe in such order by chance (along with the evidence from the Qur'an). Where did the gaseous mass come from in the first place? It had to have been created by some One. And don't go through the whole 'how then, was God created?' thing, which is an old argument. |
It is an old argument because it is valid. If something had to exist to create the universe (your logic being something cannot come from nothing), how could the thing that created the universe come into being without something creating it. Incidentally, the Qur'an is not evidence - it is a book of mythology, perhaps historical fiction to some extent.
| Sarraa wrote: |
You don't seem to dismiss the idea of eternity, since you believe that this ''gas'' or ''mass'' was eternal, since it couldn't have come from something else because that would prove the existence of a Creator. Or perhaps you believe that the gas came from something, which came from something else, and that came from something else and so on, which would still leave us with eternity. |
I don't dismiss eternity. I don't dismiss the belief of many that God exists. I don't dismiss the belief of many that there is no God. I don't dismiss the big bang theory.
I just assert that all these things are attempts to explain the unknown. All are like beating a dead horse - as Bob S. so cleverly illustrated. They have little or no relevance to our life - unless we decide they are important to us.
| Sarraa wrote: |
So why is it so hard to believe that there is an eternal Creator, a God, but it's easy to stick to thinking that a mere gas mass thing created this world?
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It's not hard to believe it. As I said before, either belief is reasonable when you accept the rule-set or mythology that supports the framework.
All you have to do is decide to believe one or the other and you can believe it. Does that make it true or valid for the all of humanity? Hardly. Does that make it true and valid for you? Apparently yes. Does that mean I have to believe the same thing? Obviously not.
The important thing is to respect other people's right to believe what they choose as their truth. Ok, that sounds strange - but it makes sense in day-to-day practice. And day-to-day practice is what is important to me. It's possible to make both right and wrong decisions both with and without a belief in God.
The decisions we make from moment to moment (the results) are far more important the the beliefs that motivate the decisions.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| Sarraa wrote: |
| There is logic, reason and evidence to prove the existence of a Creator, and it is that a mere bang could not have created this universe in such order by chance ...It had to have been created by some One. And don't go through the whole 'how then, was God created?' thing, which is an old argument. |
It is an old argument because it is valid. If something had to exist to create the universe (your logic being something cannot come from nothing), how could the thing that created the universe come into being without something creating it. |
When getting into Big Bang cosmology, things get very weird. It's hard to talk about what came "before" because literally there was no "before" before the Big Bang. "Before" implies the existence of time out of which comes sequences of events. But Time itself was created at the moment of the Big Bang. There was no Time such as we know and experience it prior to that event.  Even if there was some sort of dimensional existence of Time within the layers of branes (that supposedly existed and collided to create our 4-D universe), it may not have existed in a form we could experience and comprehend. Perhaps there are other branes out there colliding and creating parallel universes. Perhaps someday another brane will collide with our 4-brane universe and wipe everything out. The possibilites boggle the mind whether you believe in a Supreme Being of the Bulk Universe guiding these branes or not. 
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"It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood." -- Karl Popper |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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I was wondering where my branes went.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:33 am Post subject: |
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You learn something new here every day. This forum is very good for my brane..... But, if I am allowed to say something... You are a little bit exaggerating with inventiveness...
It is not defined yet, what a 4-dimensional thing really is. There is this definition, and that definition. Ok, Einstein said the 4th dimension is time, but our teacher once told us this: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:WUERFEL5_0-_bis_5-dimensionale_Wuerfelanaloge.jpg
Can you tell me whether this is a wrong definition, or whether you can combine this definition with your definition? |
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Bob S.
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Ah, hyperdimensional geometry such as tesseracts can be mathematically modeled, but they can't physically exist in our 3D+Time universe in such a way that we could see it, touch it, and experience it (unless you get down to sub-sub-sub-atomic quantum string level where again reality gets very weird with its pocket folded dimensions).
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"It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood." -- Karl Popper |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| So is 4 dimension "time", or "the construction in your last posting"? Haha, maybe we are beating a dead horse, too... |
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Cristi
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Costa Rica
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Hi mates!
Ummm.... well, this is a very interesting topic but also delicate. I whish I could tell you everything I'm think but I don't have so much time so I'm just telling you that I'm agnostic and well I wanted to share a little story.
One of my classmates asked me if I'm atheist and I said no, I'm agnostic. So she asked if I believe in any god and I said, well, no, I don't believe in god, but I'm not saying it's wrong to believe in any god; I just mean it isn't an issue of importance in my filosophy. Then she looked very alarmed and asked me what would I do if there's really a god (the christian one) and when I die he'll punish me and ask me why didn't you believe in me? Well, I would answer, I couldn't see you, feel you, hear you or anything, I didn't know you do exist and well, since god is perfect he'll understand and maybe he wouldn't even ask me such a dumb question. In any case, I think christians believe because they fear and not because they admire their god.
I can't prove god exists and I can't prove he doesn�t exist. I just know, I don�t need a god to live in this world I just need love, respect and tolerance and that's something you build through your live not something God, Alla, Brahma, Budda or whoever gave me.
I understand that people believe in different things and I respect that. But I don't reckon that not believing is such a terrible thing, it�s just another way of seeing the world and living in it.
_________________
�PURA VIDA! Carpe Diem
"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear--not absence of fear."
Mark Twain. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Cristi wrote: |
| I understand that people believe in different things and I respect that. But I don't reckon that not believing is such a terrible thing, it�s just another way of seeing the world and living in it. |
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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