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ClarissaMach
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 644
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| pugachevV wrote: |
I don't see any other religion going around flying planes full of civilians into towers full of civilians.
Don't give us this sophist bullsh i t about singling out Islam... Islam is standing there naked for all to see shouting, "look at me now, you infidel bastards!" |
Here you have taken the actions of a small group of extremists and applied the ideology, and your judgment, to an entire society.
I could use the same logic you use to say all Christians are murderers because Doctors at abortion clinics have been killed by Christians.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
Can you not see the glaring fallacy of your logic? |
Wow! I wish pugachevV would answer this question! The problem is that he/she usually runs away when discussions get too hot!
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Stormy Weather. |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I like the way beancurdturtle talks. he is always fair-minded, cool, and rational when he tries to prove something. maybe that's why I can always appreciate his posts with pleasure.
yes, I think we should distinguish terrorism and Islam, they are different. we shouldn't simply pin terrorism to Islam just because those terrorists are Muslim. those terrorists just have the twisted religion.
It's very narrow to call Islam "evil religion" just because of what those terrorists have done. |
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Anuradha Chepur
Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 933
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| If a family member is degenerate, it reflects on the family. It is then up to the family to take corrective measures, or disown him and publish a disclaimer, etc. In the context of the discussion, it�s the the religious authorities who have to act against those within their religion, bringing disgrace to their religion. |
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CP
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Dr. Chepur wrote:
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In the context of the discussion, it�s the the religious authorities who have to act against those within their religion, bringing disgrace to their religion.
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Fine, but they never do!
If the pope quotes a long-dead ruler in the context of an academic discussion, the Islamic leaders denounce him and people riot in the streets.
But if Muslims misquote the Koran and commit horrendous atrocities in the name of Islam and Allah, no Islamic leaders denounce them or, in fact, say anything at all.
Why is that?
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb |
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asterix
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you for your apology BTC. It must have been difficult for you. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| asterix wrote: |
| Thank you for your apology BTC. It must have been difficult for you. |
I should assume then, than that you were not attempting to single out, and demonize, Islam with your assertion?
If that's the case, an apology is very easy for me to ask.
I have no problems with retracting my opinions when proven wrong, or apologizing when I do something wrong or misunderstand someone.
It's a weak person who cannot face, accept, and acknowledge their own misconceptions and mistakes.
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Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| CP wrote: |
But if Muslims misquote the Koran and commit horrendous atrocities in the name of Islam and Allah, no Islamic leaders denounce them or, in fact, say anything at all.
Why is that? |
Sorry CP, but your blanket generalization of Islamic Leaders is incorrect.
| Quote: |
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) ... offered its support for a fatwa, or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism issued by the Fiqh Council of North America (FCNA) and endorsed by more than 120 U.S. Muslim groups, leaders and institutions.
http://www.cair.com/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=1675&theType=NR |
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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Anuradha Chepur
Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 933
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| The fatwah thing is a welcome gesture, BCT, but is is accessible to those few who have the patience to search it out on google. They can do with a more public and noisy uproar, if they want to uphold the respect of the religion in the eyes of the rest of the world. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Anuradha Chepur wrote: |
| The fatwah thing is a welcome gesture, BCT, but is is accessible to those few who have the patience to search it out on google. They can do with a more public and noisy uproar, if they want to uphold the respect of the religion in the eyes of the rest of the world. |
It was published in the media - just quietly. The amount of noise something gets in the media is entirely dependent on the amount of advertising dollars it will generate.
This story doesn't fit the mold of the Radical Islamic fear vortex that makes the news more "sexy" and therefore sells advertising time.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: |
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ClarissaMach I must have missed the question I am alleged to have run away from.
Please feel free to ask it again.
I must admit, I sometimes don't read those posts that are long-winded, self-indulgent, and circuititous. |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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BTC perhaps you can support your criticism of CP with some actual instances of when any high up Islamic leader has criticised terrorists?
In London England, they normally stand up and exhort their followers to kill all the infidels, while the cops stand around smiling indulgently. |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| pugachevV wrote: |
BTC perhaps you can support your criticism of CP with some actual instances of when any high up Islamic leader has criticised terrorists?
In London England, they normally stand up and exhort their followers to kill all the infidels, while the cops stand around smiling indulgently. |
1. I did not criticize CP. I have a great deal of respect for CP - both the advice he gives to English learners, and his usual method of argumentation are very respectable. I did disagree with the specific assertion that "no Islamic leaders denounce them (Islamic extremists) or, in fact, say anything at all." because the statement is not true.
2. I did give an actual instance of Islamic Leaders denouncing terrorism, and a link to the statement endorsed by more than 120 U.S. Muslim groups, leaders and institutions.
http://www.cair.com/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=1675&theType=NR
The question whether there is, or is not, too much indulgence and tolerance of "hate speech" of all kinds is a separate issue. That's all wrapped up in the struggle of democratic or "free" societies to balance security for their people, and the rights of freedom of speech and expression. Both CP and I were not having that discussion in this specific instance.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| pugachevV wrote: |
ClarissaMach I must have missed the question I am alleged to have run away from.
Please feel free to ask it again. |
Let me help ClarissaMach:
The entire post, with the question she referenced was:
| ClarissaMach wrote: |
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| pugachevV wrote: |
I don't see any other religion going around flying planes full of civilians into towers full of civilians.
Don't give us this sophist bullsh i t about singling out Islam... Islam is standing there naked for all to see shouting, "look at me now, you infidel bastards!" |
Here you have taken the actions of a small group of extremists and applied the ideology, and your judgment, to an entire society.
I could use the same logic you use to say all Christians are murderers because Doctors at abortion clinics have been killed by Christians.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
Can you not see the glaring fallacy of your logic? |
Wow! I wish pugachevV would answer this question! The problem is that he/she usually runs away when discussions get too hot! |
| pugachevV wrote: |
| I must admit, I sometimes don't read those posts that are long-winded, self-indulgent, and circuititous. |
- The entire post, excluding ClarissaMach's comments, is barely over 50 words. Hardly long winded.
- I am not talking about myself in the post. It's not self indulgent.
- The post was a simple comparative statement and a question. Certainly not circuitous.
The question was "Can you not see the glaring fallacy of your logic?"
Your excuse making is groundless criticism, has no foundation in truth, and appears to me to be avoidance.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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CP
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Beancurd Turtle wrote:
| Quote: |
| Sorry CP, but your blanket generalization of Islamic Leaders is incorrect. |
You are right, Mr. Turtle -- and I should have known better than to make an absolute statement such as that. Thank you. I had forgotten that a group of Islamic leaders made a statement 14-1/2 months ago that terrorism is against the principles of Islam:
"There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism," they said. I believe that's true.
My apologies.
But, in truth, I do wish more Muslim leaders would say such things more often and more publicly, and in response to specific horrors.
I would like to see a little rioting in the streets -- prompted by these Muslim leaders, as against the pope -- in protest of people who give all Muslims a bad name by bombing subways and plotting to blow up a group of airplanes purportedly in the name of Islam.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| CP wrote: |
But, in truth, I do wish more Muslim leaders would say such things more often and more publicly, and in response to specific horrors.
I would like to see a little rioting in the streets -- prompted by these Muslim leaders, as against the pope -- in protest of people who give all Muslims a bad name by bombing subways and plotting to blow up a group of airplanes purportedly in the name of Islam. |
I'll have to agree with you. Maybe large and loud demonstrations would be preferrable to roiting - but I'm with you in spirit.
Well said.
_________________
Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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