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JiyeoNniE
Joined: 11 Jul 2003
Posts: 13
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 Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject: Taiwan Vs. China???? |
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I was skimming through the Current Events forum and found several
arguments or rather some rudely opniated topics like Taiwan belongs to China, blah blah blah..
I'm trying to sense things out, is this just a mere opinions of people or is there a real current news that the Chinese government is trying to take over Taiwan??
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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I can imagine this thread turning into a thousand posts of witless flaming already. In a desperate attempt to avoid that, I shall direct you to my rather wordy post in another thread: http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/student/viewtopic.php?t=2069&start=205
The PROC has been trying to *assimilate* Taiwan into the officially recognized Chinese territory ever since 1949. Methods range from using direct military conflicts in the early days to the recent "we are brothers" strategy. Fortunately for me, they haven't succeeded yet. |
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dancefish
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 14
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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it is insignificant to discuss one more time about whether Taiwan belongs China, obviously, we can use 'YES' to ask this question, just a 'TIME QUESTION' 
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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I guess you haven't bothered to read the post at all.
It DOESN'T belong to China now. What you want to say is "it SHOULD belong to China" or "it WILL belong to China". That depends on what the Chinese people do in the future and how the Taiwanese interpret their actions, not your personal belief. |
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dancefish
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 14
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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you can paste your personal opinion here freely, but you can not understood what is Chinese feeling, as foreigner, some of them misunderstand the relationship between mainland and taiwan, you can seek more history background about mainland and taiwan to dig out the answer as you vexed, geographically, mainland and taiwan are united, we have same ancestor, culture and behavior, the people, who lived in taiwan, most of them, recognized taiwan belongs China, as we know, Bian's government face to many pressure after Lian and Song's visit of mainland, why? you know? you can really understand? I think its not a personal belief or not, it is fact, how can a outlier to put out taiwan is an independent country?
regards
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Last edited by dancefish on Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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I totally agree with dancefish! fish is so rational and reasonable. yes, foreigners have a hard time to understand the issue about mainland and TaiWan.
and I don't think JiyeoNniE's words make sense. at least JiyeoNniE isn't calm and cool.
Yelling isn't good for any discussion. |
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JiyeoNniE
Joined: 11 Jul 2003
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| RedRose wrote: |
I totally agree with dancefish! fish is so rational and reasonable. yes, foreigners have a hard time to understand the issue about mainland and TaiWan.
and I don't think JiyeoNniE's words make sense. at least JiyeoNniE isn't calm and cool.
Yelling isn't good for any discussion. |
You think Dancefish is "so rational and reasonable" because you share the same opinion with him. My words may have been ambiguous because I was trying to express my zero-knowledge on the issue. Frankly, I cannot find any indication that I imposed "yelling." Throwing derogatory comment on anybody's opinion without imposing reason isn't good for any discussion.
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JiyeoNniE
Joined: 11 Jul 2003
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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KHF (tho have no clue what KHF is an acronym for...)
I have read your verbose analyzation on the issue very well and I concur on every point that you have mentioned.
In my opinion, the reunification of China and Taiwan is senseless. History is a record of past, it should not be the main factor in the present time that sparks the issue. China and Taiwan are two separate countries. It's funny to hear that word descrbing China as the "mainland."
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| JiyeoNniE wrote: |
You think Dancefish is "so rational and reasonable" because you share the same opinion with him. My words may have been ambiguous because I was trying to express my zero-knowledge on the issue. Frankly, I cannot find any indication that I imposed "yelling." Throwing derogatory comment on anybody's opinion without imposing reason isn't good for any discussion. |
come on!!! take a look at your own words, here you go!
| Quote: |
I was skimming through the Current Events forum and found several
arguments or rather some rudely opniated topics like Taiwan belongs to China, blah blah blah.. |
sounds like a baby is yelling  |
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stellara
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 583
Location: germany
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: |
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this surely is not yelling! i believe JiyeoNniE just wanted to cut short the discussion meaning he didn't want to repeat the whole stuff he already heard about taiwan and china. it's totally understandable from my point of view because this issue is so complex i really don't understand everything..
would be very helpful if someone could explain the situation clearly, without having anyone else interfere.
ahm, i have an (probably naive) question.. what's so important about taiwan that china has been trying to assimilate taiwan since 1949 and even now doesn't give up? why don't they just let them be independent?
ps: to prevent any comments, i didn't read this linked thread because this whole matter is so confusing and if such a discussion eventually ends up with arguing about whether taiwan belongs to china or not, i find it very exhausting.. sorry.
greets 
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RedRose
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| stellara wrote: |
this surely is not yelling! i believe JiyeoNniE just wanted to cut short the discussion meaning he didn't want to repeat the whole stuff he already heard about taiwan and china. it's totally understandable from my point of view because this issue is so complex i really don't understand everything..
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stellara, that's your viewpoint, not mine. |
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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And if all of you who believe "foreigners don't understand" actually read my post carefully, you would've found out that I was born and raised in Taiwan. Now what does that tell you?
My answer: Absolutely NOTHING! Race and nationality have little importance in a debate. Sure it might imply that this particular topic is of greater interest to those from the vicinity where the events are taking place. However, when it comes down to the beef, it's the ability to gather data, make logical inferences and wrap them into a convincing argument that really counts. Using *foreigners don't understand* is nothing short of burying your head in the sand. It's just a convenient way to disregard someone's idea without any actual reasons. |
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dancefish
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 14
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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it is the last tip I paste about this kinds discuss. It is very meaningless talk about the topic repeatedly. For Canadian, if I ask you how about Wikipedia's independent progress, what do you think about? Will you to see it detached from Canda? Can you tell me will you disavow your birth-father after your parent divorced, and how do you change your kin? Someone is inclement to talk a lot of nonsense about "taiwan is a independent country" in the world, however, most of countrys recognize taiwan is a province of China only, taiwan issue just Chinese own interior, stop your absurd diction, stop exhausting discussing.
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| stellara wrote: |
ahm, i have an (probably naive) question.. what's so important about taiwan that china has been trying to assimilate taiwan since 1949 and even now doesn't give up? why don't they just let them be independent?
ps: to prevent any comments, i didn't read this linked thread because this whole matter is so confusing and if such a discussion eventually ends up with arguing about whether taiwan belongs to china or not, i find it very exhausting.. sorry.
greets |
Very well, I will try to explain the whole situation from the beginning to its current status.
The Communist Party of China (CPC, its unofficial name being Chinese Communist Party, CCP) was founded in 1921, but the significance of it was not shown until the 1926, when the Chinese civil war began. Although the Republic of China (also widely refered to as the Chinese nationalists) boasts of being the first democratic nation in the east Asia, the way democracy was implemented was nothing but a name. Kuomingtan (KMT) led by Chiang Kai-Shek, being the only significant political party at that time, was a harsh and corrupt ruler. At first the Soviets helped KMT, presummably with the hope of one day transforming the already totalitarian regime into a communistic one. Chiang however, showed aggressive opposition to the idea of communism. Nevertheless, the CPC was quickly suppressed by KMT and largely remained forgotten until the war broke out.
Although many seem to think that the US and Japan were the only major players in the pacific theater of World War II, China had a significant part in it as well. It had all the things the Japanese wanted, resources and a vast territory. With that, it was the first nation being hit by the Japanese troops. With a fierce enemy on his hand, Chiang focused on the Japanese invaders and basically forgot that CPC was still creeping around somewhere. During that time, the CPC gradually recovered. When the war ended, the civil war resumed, except it was more than what Chiang could handle. The typical *cold war* pattern assumed, with the Soviet Union backing the CPC and the US supporting ROC. The two sides clashed repeatedly, until the KMT was defeated in 1949. With the CPC closing in on all fronts, the KMT soundly retreated to a small island off the coast of southeastern China, known as Taiwan. After CPC gained control, they established what People's Republic of China (PROC) is today.
In the period followed, the hostility between PROC and ROC was extreme. None recognized the other as the legitimate ruler of China. At first there were some small scale battles, mostly just exchanges of long range artillery fire. However, the CPC, being inferior in terms of armament and equipments, did not have the means to attempt a landing. Also they had severe social problems on their hands so the skirmishes eventually ceased. In the mean time, ROC was booted out of the UN and CPC replaced it as the legitimate ruling body of China.
Over 50 years have passed and democracy is no longer just a pretty name for the Republic of China. The ruling party has changed, the parliament has also undergone many facial lifts. With some hard work and creativity, the Taiwanese economy has vastly improved over time and is now recognized as a developed country. What remained though, is the hostility between ROC and PROC. Although there are no more artillery shells, they are now replaced by the tried and true propaganda. Not all Taiwanese believe in the merits of independence, either, although one of the major reasons has always been fear of military conflicts since PROC has a knack of bringing it up whenever the issue is being discussed.
I will talk about why the PROC so desperately wishes to acquire Taiwan if you still find it interesting. Be warned though, since I am not a CPC core member and do not work for any intelligence agency, they will only be inferences based on facts, not facts themselves.
Last edited by KHF on Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:09 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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KHF
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dancefish wrote: |
| it is the last tip I paste about this kinds discuss. It is very meaningless talk about the topic repeatedly. For Canadian, if I ask you how about Wikipedia's independent progress, what do you think about? Will you to see it detached from Canda? Can you tell me will you disavow your birth-father after your parent divorced, and how do you change your kin? Someone is inclement to talk a lot of nonsense about "taiwan is a independent country" in the world, however, most of countrys recognize taiwan is a province of China only, taiwan issue just Chinese own interior, stop your absurd diction, stop exhausting discussing. |
Wikipedia's independent progress? I assume you meant the Quebec issue? If Quebec wishes to be separated, LET THEM VOTE FOR IT. If you didn't know already, it was done in the 1980 and the people in Quebec decided to stay. See? That's called the minority right and the respect for them even if they number in just a small portion. Frankly a lot of people in China need to learn what it means. Now since I don't live in Quebec and do not hold the Canadian citizenship, I obviously have no rights to participate in any of their referendums. My thoughts on whether or not Quebec should be independent therefore weighs probably less than the pigeon poop on my balcony, so I will spare you the agony of hearing about it.
The issue of ancestry has already been covered in the linked post I gave. If you haven't read that section I suggest you give it a read. If you already did, well, your argument didn't go anywhere and the same counter-argument still applies. Notice that I never said the Taiwanese majority don't have their roots in the Chinese civilization because that's a fact. Now tell me how I *disavowed my father*. Frankly, ancestry doesn't tell us anything useful anyway. Americans have their roots in Britain, Ukrainians have their roots in Russia and how come no one is complaining? Because they know it's really quite meaningless. It's the belief in sovereignty that counts, not the biological relationship.
Now your last few lines made me laugh. If you don't understand a word, you can use a dictionary. If you feel overwhelmed, then take a break. No one is forcing you to keep reading. But you have no right to tell me to shut up. I don't plan to anyway.
Last edited by KHF on Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:30 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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