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leslie
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 244
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 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: please help me with these two idioms |
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Hi,
Could you please tell me the meanings of the following two idioms, and if you could give me some examples? By the way, do they mean the same thing?
1. tar sb with the same brush
2. throw the baby out with bath water
Thanks for your help in advance.
Leslie |
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+Immune+
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Warsaw/Poland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:47 am Post subject: Re: please help me with these two idioms |
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| leslie wrote: |
Hi,
Could you please tell me the meanings of the following two idioms, and if you could give me some examples? By the way, do they mean the same thing?
1. tar sb with the same brush
2. throw the baby out with bath water
Thanks for your help in advance.
Leslie |
tar sb with the same brush
it means to think that someone has the same bad qualities as another person
e.g. Because they worked so closely in the same department, Sarah was tarred with the same brush as John.
throw the baby out with bath water
to lose valuable ideas or things in your attempt to get rid of what is not wanted
e.g. When they decided to get rid of all of the computers because one was broken it was like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
As you can see from the explanations above, these two idioms have different meanings.
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Well, um.. "Never open the refrigerator when you're bored"  |
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ebb
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: Re: please help me with these two idioms |
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| leslie wrote: |
Hi,
Could you please tell me the meanings of the following two idioms, and if you could give me some examples? By the way, do they mean the same thing?
1. tar sb with the same brush
2. throw the baby out with bath water
Thanks for your help in advance.
Leslie |
1. means to judge a second person based on one's negative feelings aboiut the first person, just because they share a common characteristic. For instance, you might "tar" Jack Smith (a local city politician, say, in South Alabama) with the same "negative" brush as you would US Senator Ted Kennedy, just because both are Democrats. However, that is unfair: Jack may not share any views with Teddy, and it is an over-generalization to assume that Jack thinks like Teddy, just because they both belong to the same (very large and very diverse) political group.
2. is not quite the same the first. It means "to reject the good in something, just because it has a bad characteristic." The water is used for washing the baby; when you throw the used water out, you still want to keep the baby!!
Actually, the two are related closely, as both refer to a kind of prejudice and over-reaction in a person's jumping to a conclusion too quickly, based on incomplete information or insufficient consideration. They are both meant to criticize someone who makes a rash, and unconsidered, judgment. 1. is used mainly with people, while 2. is used mainly with ideas ("The Senator voted against the PATRIOT Act because of the electronic surveillance provisions, but this was throwing the baby out with the bath water.")
_________________
"This is insolence up with which I will not put." Winston Churchill, upon reading a newspaper�s criticism of his having ended a sentence with a preposition.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word." Al Capone. |
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leslie
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Thank both of you. Another question related to this is : is 'be tarred with the same brush' the same as 'to tar somebody with the same brush'? According to NTC's American Idioms Dictionary, to be tarred with the same brush means 'sharing the same characteristics'; 'having the good and bad points as someone else'. From my understanding of this definition, it seems totally different from 'to tar somebody with the same brush', am I right?
Thanks for your help! |
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ebb
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: |
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Another question related to this is : is 'be tarred with the same brush' the same as 'to tar somebody with the same brush'?
Yes, these are the same.
According to NTC's American Idioms Dictionary, to be tarred with the same brush means 'sharing the same characteristics'; 'having the good and bad points as someone else'. From my understanding of this definition, it seems totally different from 'to tar somebody with the same brush', am I right?
No, these are just two different formulations: the idiom is the same. I don't think the dictionary definition captures the ironic use of the idiom ... the point is that just because X and Y are both members of ABC group, this doesn't mean that they are identical in all respects. And it is unfair and often thoughtless to judge people this way.
The only difference between the formulations is that one is in the passive voice, and the other is in the active voice, but this has no semantic relevance.
_________________
"This is insolence up with which I will not put." Winston Churchill, upon reading a newspaper�s criticism of his having ended a sentence with a preposition.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word." Al Capone. |
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leslie
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Hi ebb,
I'll type the example sentence from that dictionary. Could you please paraphrase it for me?
Jack and his brother are tarred with the same brush. They're both crooks.
(Does it mean Jack and his brother are the same....they're both crooks.)
If I rewrite this sentence as follows, will the meaning be different?
People tar Jack with the same brush, for his brother is a crook.
Jack's brother is a crook, and Jack is tarred with the same brush.
(Could it mean 1. Jack is as the same as his brother, who's a crook. And, 2. Jack is not a crook, but is wrongly prejudiced or believed as bad as his brother. Could both meanings sustain?
Thank you for your help. |
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ebb
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| leslie wrote: |
Hi ebb,
I'll type the example sentence from that dictionary. Could you please paraphrase it for me?
Jack and his brother are tarred with the same brush. They're both crooks.
(Does it mean Jack and his brother are the same....they're both crooks.)
Yes, but this is weak and misses entirely the point of being "tarred with the same brush.." that one of them is the REAL crook, and the other is just thought to be a crook because of the family relationship. I don't care for this use of the idiom at all; it misses the ironic point. The dictionary is stretching too far and is thereby diluting the power of the idiom, IMHO
If I rewrite this sentence as follows, will the meaning be different?
People tar Jack with the same brush, for his brother is a crook.
This is better, because it starts to convey that Jack is being judged unfairly.... just because his brother is a crook, it does not follow that Jack is one also.
I would say "Jack's brother is a crook, and Jack is often tarred with the same brush."
This conveys the meaning that Jack is unfairly believed to be a crook because his brother is one.
Jack's brother is a crook, and Jack is tarred with the same brush.
(Could it mean 1. Jack is as the same as his brother, who's a crook. And, 2. Jack is not a crook, but is wrongly prejudiced or believed as bad as his brother. Could both meanings sustain?
#2 is the only one that captures the idiom's spirit, and if you just said the sentence, this is the meaning that literate people would take from it.
Thank you for your help. |
_________________
"This is insolence up with which I will not put." Winston Churchill, upon reading a newspaper�s criticism of his having ended a sentence with a preposition.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word." Al Capone. |
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leslie
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Hi ebb,
Thank you so much for your help and time. I think I quite capture it now. Personally, I agree with you. The reason I asked this question or comparison of these two variations from the same idiom is because someone argued with me over the usage of 'be tarred with the same brush", and he insisted in the usage from NTC's American Idioms Dictionary. I just need confirmation from English native speakers to see if I was right about the usage. Thanks once again for your help.  |
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ebb
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: |
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To convey the two are just alike, in truth, I'd choose something more accurate such as "They're just like two peas in a pod."
For father and son you couild say "Well, the apple does not fall far from the tree."
Or more literary: "Oh, they're just Tweedledum and Tweetledee." This comes from Lewis Carroll and you can find out more by a Google search if you like.
http://www.answers.com/topic/tweedledum-and-tweedledee
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fri1.htm
Or you could use more humorously Frick and Frack.
All these convey the point that the two are just the same in all relevant respects. The idioms are all a bit derogatory, suggesting the people don't have much individuality or imagination....
Tell your friend not to put too much faith in dictionaries. They are only starting points, not scripture. You can't use them as the be-all and end-all because that's not what their function is.
If they had to explain all the nuances, they would be about 20 times longer, thus vitiating their usefulness as handy guides.
_________________
"This is insolence up with which I will not put." Winston Churchill, upon reading a newspaper�s criticism of his having ended a sentence with a preposition.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word." Al Capone. |
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