Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[hela]

Dear teachers,

�The family soon settled into a relaxing routine. Each morning Stevenson (1) would get up / used to get up early and take them out for long walks (2) over / on (?) the hills.�

Would you please tell me :

1) If it�s true that the difference between �used to� and �would� is that �used to� expresses a past habit that is no longer true today; and that �would� expresses a past habit that might still be taking place today?

2) Which preposition is best? If both are possible what would be the difference between them, please?

3) "Although he (a) had lived / had been living / lived abroad for many years, in 1881 he returned to the land of his birth for a holiday. With him (b) were / was (? = what�s the rule for concord here?) his American wife Fanny, whom he had met five years earlier in France, and his stepchildren from Franny�s first marriage."

Many thanks,
Hela

[Brian Boyd]

That's a lot of questions, Hela!

�The family soon settled into a relaxing routine. Each morning Stevenson would get up early and take them out for long walks over the hills.�

This is the version that reads best to me. I wouldn't say 'on the hills'. I would use 'over' or 'in' the hills. To me, 'over the hills' suggests a long walk and 'in the hills', not so long.

I'm not sure about that 'used to' / 'would' question. My first thought was that 'used to' suggests Stevenson is still alive (he used to do it but he doesn't do it nowadays), and 'would' suggests he's dead (he would go walking each morning but now he can't because he's no longer around).

That's just my initial ideas about it - I'm sure one of the grammar whizzes on here can give a much more accurate explanation!

Brian

http://www.grammarmancomic.com

[hela]

Thank you Brian for your help. Your explanations are very useful because I'm always looking for justifications to grammar choices.

If somebody else has other justifications, they are very welcome.
All the best,
Hela

[ebb]

"Although he (a) had lived / had been living / lived abroad for many years, in 1881 he returned to the land of his birth for a holiday. With him (b) were / was (? = what�s the rule for concord here?) his American wife Fanny, whom he had met five years earlier in France, and his stepchildren from Franny�s first marriage."

The subject is "Franny and her children" -- this is not in my opinion a "collective" noun, nor does it function as a collective noun, but this is simply a compound subject -- so in this example, the verb must take the plural form. "Were" would therefore be correct.

Collective noun = "team" for instance. "The team is going to the game. We expect them to give their best effort." The "team" is a whole composed of individuals, but the intent is to speak of the whole collection, as a unit, with respect to the journey to the stadium.

However, once the game starts, we think of the team members individually, each giving his best effort, so "They are giving their best efforts" is also correct!!

Annoyingly, a collective noun can take either singular or plural, depending on the context!!

Other CN examples: the group, the jury, the army, the crowd.

But unless you have a collective noun in such a context, the sentence will always take the plural --- in such a case you simply have a compound subject, requiring the plural.

With a C.N., you will have to think twice. But you may still elect to use the plural form.

Take comfort -- native speakers may disagree on the proper usage as well.
_________________
"This is insolence up with which I will not put." Winston Churchill, upon reading a newspaper�s criticism of his having ended a sentence with a preposition.

"You can get more with a kind word and a gun, than with just a kind word." Al Capone.

[bud]

Well, I'm not one of the grammar wizzes, either, but I'd like to add some of my own thoughts.

1. I never thought about that comparison (used to vs. would) before, but it makes sense. With every example I can think of, I agree.

Brian, I disagree about used to signaling death, though... I used to be an insurance clerk. I haven't been one since 1973.

2. I agree with Brian. On seems to focus only on the hilltops, or possibly the entirety of each hill. My mind wonders how he got to the hills, and how he gets from one hill to another. Over, at least in my mind, has more of a connotation of movement. I don't have those questions with 'over."

3a. I think we can rule out "lived" because it is an earlier past than the past of the main clause. A more complex tense is needed. I think we can also rule out "had lived." To my ear, it sounds as if he had lived abroad for many years, but that circumstance ended sometime before his return in 1881. "Had been living" has the sense that he was still living abroad at the time he "returned" to the land of his birth for a holiday. I think it has to be "had been living."

b. I believe it is a passive sentence. Therefore, what seems to be the object of the sentence is really the subject ("his American wife Fanny, whom he had met five years earlier in France, and his stepchildren from Franny�s first marriage"). Thus, "were" is required (simplified: His wife and his stepchildren were with him).

[hela]

Thank you VERY much Ebb and Budd for your detailed comments. That helps a lot!

Hela

[hela]

Dear teachers,

As in my previous question would you please tell me why you would choose a tense rather than another?

They 1 had been enjoying / had enjoyed this for several days when the weather suddenly too a turn for the worse. Trapped indoors by the heavy rain, Robert�s twelve-year-old stepson, Lloyd, 2 became / was becoming increasingly bored and restless. Desperate to keep the boy amused, Robert got out some drawing paper and asked the boy to do some painting.
After he 3 had been painting for several hours the boy 4 returned (this is the only possibility, isn't it?) to his stepfather with a coloured map of a tropical island...
For the last four years Henley 5 had been publishing / had published Robert�s stories in his magazine, and the two 6 had become good friends.

Thanks a million,
Hela

[bud]

1. "Had been enjoying." That tells us that the enjoying continued up until the weather took a turn for the worse. "Had enjoyed" tells us that the enjoyment stopped some time prior to the turn in the weather.

2. "Was becoming." That gives more of a sense of the process, of the increasing nature of his emotional state. To me, "became" does not necessarily imply a process. (I'm sure there's a better explanation.)

3. Yes - similar logic to #1.

4. Yes.

5. "Had been publishing." (similar to #2)

6. Yes.

Think of "had been verb-ing" with the same logic as you do with "have been verb-ing." The only difference is the timeframe. "Have been .....ing" implies from some time in the past right up through this present moment. "Had been .....ing" implies from some time in the more distant past right up through the exact past of the main clause of the sentence (or in the main time of the story/account).

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me!

[hela]

Thank you Bud, I understood everything you said. But just another question please. What about the tense after WHILE should it always be in the progressive form, or not necessarily? In the second case would you please tell me why?

"While the rain 1 was beating down / beat down on the roof of his rented holiday cottage the author 2 sat down by the fire to write a story."

Hope you're not getting bored with me and my redundant questions! [/b]

[bud]

Bored? You must be kidding! What makes Dave's ESL Cafe so great is all of you students who are so eager to understand every nuance of a topic.

Your questions are always tough and often I can go either way on them.

This one, for instance. On the one hand, I'd say that "was beating down" is correct. That tense involves the duration implied by "while," whereas "beat down" does not as effectively, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I can imagine hearing or saying the clause with the simple past. Is that something that we'd accept in casual speech, but not in formal speech? I'm not sure, but I'd lean toward "was beating down" as being THE correct one in a strict grammatical sense even though you might hear it either way in casual speech.

[hela]

Thanks Bud for your encouragements and dedication!

[bud]

Thank you, Hela!

[Blossom]

Bud, you are womderful.