Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Manuel]

I have just returned to my house in C�rdoba, Argentina after attending a three-hour-speech of Fidel Castro. He changed very slightly the idea I had of him. I really don�t know anything about Cuban politicall refugees in other countries, and how is the reality about missing people for politicall reasons. I only now the good numbers about medicin and society stuff. Could anybody clarify this points to me ? Could you also tell me your opinion about Cuba�s future after Castro�s desease?

[ltp-008]

Does the dictator of Cuba Fidel Castro have a disease?He may be nearly eighty years old,under his ruling in Cuba,Cuba doesn't develope very well,this is main trait in communist countries.

there are now a few communist countries in the world after Soviet Unions callapsed in 1990,there are Cuba,North korean,China ,Laos and Vietnam.Cuba and North Korean are pure communist countries which they are deeply isolated from the rest world,their economies are in the edge of collapse or have been in collapse.

China and Vietnam are not pure communist countries any more,they have perfomed economic reform for about more than 20 years,large part of their economies have been transformed into private section,since their free -market oriented reform,their economies have improved a lot.But they are still dictatorship regimes ,they controlled main industrials such as banking,railway,airline ,communication and so on,more especially they controlled all media in which they don't want their people to access to oversea media,they just block them in order to maintain their dictatorship regimes.

I don't know what kind of disease the Fidel Castro have,but his unhealth is a good news to the Cuba people,I heard that his brother may succeed to his power,this is not a good news to the Cuba people.Do you remember when the founder of North Korean died in 1994?His son Jing kong II succeed to his father 's power,now North Korean is suffering more from his ruling.

[Manuel]

Fidel Castro didn�t pass away. I�m just thinking what would happen if he dies.

[ClarissaMach]

Itp, I am sorry, but I deeply disagree with your point of view.

Although the "pure" communist experiences that took place along the 20th and early 21th centuries don't seem to have worked as well as they were supposed to do, I don't think they were a completely failure.

Let's take Cuba as an example. I know the Cubans have a lot of problems concerning lack of democracy, and a weak economy; but considering the country suffers an embargo from the strongest economy in the world at the moment (i.e. the USA), I believe they are doing a great job. Don't you?

As far as I'm concerned, there are no people starving to death in Cuba, as there are in capitalist economies such as Brazil or most of African countries. They also have achieved great advances in medicine -- education is taken very seriously by the island's government.

The problem is that Fidel controls the country with iron hands, and he hasn't prepared a successor. Once he dies, no one can be sure that the island will keep doing fine.
_________________
Stormy Weather.

[ltp-008]

ClarissaMach:I am sorry too, I respect your view,but I strongly disagree with you on this issue.

First of all,in terms of politics ,through the history almost every communist country in the world got their powers by using violence,for example Cuba ,China ,Sovent Unions and so forth,After getting their powers these communist regimes control their countries by oppressing their people,they put their opponents into jails or labor camps,they control all media in which no different political opinions can be heard in these communist countries.

Second,in terms of economy,through history almost all communist country didn't develope their economies well,the powerful evidences were between Wester Germany and Eastern Germany and between Sourth Korean and North Korean and between China and Taiwan-Republic of China.As you know,the Western Germany had become world 's powerful economy after WWT,however the economy of Eastern Germany was in the edge of callapse,After the fall of Berlin Wall,the two Germanies were unified under the Western Germany regime-capitalism,since then the unitied Germany has been becoming stronger and stronger.Needless to say North Korean and South korean,North Korean is one of the poorest countries in the world,their people have been suffering a lot under their "dear leader",many ordinary people literally are starving to death.South Korean now is one of the strongest economies in Asia,she was once called three little dragon in Asia including Taiwan and hongkong.Taiwan under capitalism had become prosperity for a long time ,their people enjoy freedom and democracy,however the mainland China under cummunist regime have suffered a lot since the ending of the Chinese civil war in 1949,during this period of time -so-called Great Leap,millions of people starved to death,if the mainland cummunist China hadn't performed free-market oriented reform in 1979,their communist regime wouldn't have been survived.All the three countries were divided by different regimes,one side is communist regime,the other side is capitalism regmie,their economies once were at the same level before they were divided,after short period of time,the capitalism side of the same country proved that their social system -capitalism are progressive and advanced.In other words ,history has strongly proved it.

Third,about the medicine and ecucation in Cuba,what level do their medicine and ecucation have?They just have basic medicare and basic education,why do many people in Cuba take life risks across the sea to the States?Even though their people may sometimes starve to death,their media which are controled by communisnt goverment didn't dare to report it,they only report what their dictator like to hear.

All in all ,from the collapse of the Soviet Unions to beginning reforms in a few communist countries such as China and Vietnam,communist regimes are social cancers in the world,they slow down the social progress and economy development,most people in these communist regimes want to change the regime,they want to reform,they want to become democratic and free countries.I am sure that history will prove that these few communist countries will disapper in the world in the near future.

[ClarissaMach]

Itp, I believe our disagreement over this question is connected to the fact that we both live in capitalist nations, with the difference that you live in a developed country (Japan) and I live in a "developing" country (Brazil). (I placed "developing" between quotation marks because I think this denomination is nothing but an euphemism; it's a semantic trick to try to cover the fact that we are nothing but an underdeveloped nation).

I agree with you that the medicine in Cuba is probably not so developed as the American or the Japanese medicine; but I'm sure the population of the island have a much better access to medical care than most of Brazilians or Africans.

Brazil is a divided nation: while a few people have broad access to information and medical care and all the other things that money can buy, most of the population still suffers from lack of access to basic services like education, healthcare, sewage system or potable water.

Just to give you an idea of the problem: there are 180 million people living in Brazil right now; 40% of all the wealth produced by all these people is on the hands of 5 thousand families.

Besides, we still have an slaving mentality, it seems. You see: today I had my breakfast in a bakery. While I had a small talk with the girl that was serving me coffee, she told me that she works from 5:45 in the morning to 10:00 pm, from Monday to Monday. Sounds unbelievable? I know, but it's true.

The socialist experiences might look awful when you compare their social results to the ones achieved by the developed nations; but they are not that bad when you compare the situation of the former socialist countries to the situation of countries like Brazil, or the African countries, like I mentioned before.

Besides, thinking about the examples you�ve mentioned:

[asterix]

Before Castro, Cuba was a dictatorship under Battista. It is said that the Mafia was actually pulling the strings.
I think that,in general, the majority of the population is better off now than they were then.
If the USA had taken an even-handed approach to Castro, rather than the paranoid anti-communist response they adopted, Cuba would probably be reasonably prosperous and no longer communist. Still, we have to remember the Cold War was at its height.
Now Cuba seems to be doing quite well.
They have gone back to the old ways of farming, which are much more labour intensive, and environmentally friendly.
They seem to be self-sufficient, with help from Canadian and other tourists. Even some Canadian businesses are working there, despite US policy.
Castro is a dictator, and so human rights are not at the top of his "to do" list, but I confess a sneaking admiration for the Cuban people and for Castro himself, because they have successfully resisted outrageous pressure from the world's most powerful nation for fifty years and for the last 16 or so years without any help from Russia.
But the man is a famously boring and long-winded speaker.

[Manuel]

He�s not boring at all. At least not for me, I stood for three hours hearing him, but I had to go because I felt my body tired, not my mind.
I guess that he�s not what you can call a human- rights-person, but it is true that Cuba has developed medicine and education in a further way than any other Latin American country.
So, that�s why I felt an ambiguous feeling when I was hearing him: I knew that I had in front of me a man who didn�t respect different points of view, but at the same time, I admired him for resisting USA pressure for more than fifty years and for his anti-imperialist ideas, very important if Latin America wants to succes in the future.
I think that both Capitalism and Communism are not the way to reach an utopic society.
We cannot feel fear of other ideas and consider Communist countries as "cancers in the world", when, at the same time, we are surrounded by Empires who have no scruples to get what they want.

[asterix]

Capitalism seems to be the one that is most in tune with human nature though. People like the idea that they can work their way to the top and have more than their neighbour.
The idea behind communism is that everybody shares the wealth of the country, but, in fact, it doesn't work out that way, because, the apparatchiks skim the cream, you have to have police to deal with criminals, and there goes the idea of equality.
Still, if it could be made to work and everybody in the society pulled his weight, it is an attractive ideal.
Perhaps there is a middle way that would combine the best of both ideas.
I don't think communism is a cancer on the world.
If communists can get elected, how can we object?
I don't know to which "Empires" you are referring. All the former empires are finished.

[ClarissaMach]

Well, some good aspects of capitalism can't be denied. I feel this especially when I think about the static societies of the Middle Ages, when a person was condemned to belong to a certain class no matter what.

Of course the ones who are born in poverty have much more difficult to achieve success/development*; but if they have the chance to study or to work hard and show their capacity, they have the chance to make something better of their lives.

Meritocracy: some say it's nothing but a deceiving myth, but I still believe someone can do something better of his/her life as long as he/she wants. Every person, in every time, and in every single society, I believe, has a space for decision; it might be a small space; but still it exists.

I guess the socialist ideas get directly to the question: "how can we provide every single person who belongs to this society the chance to fight for his/her dreams?".




*My idea of success/development is connected to liberty: from my point of view, development and happiness have all to do with freedom, whith the opportunity one has to achieve his/her dreams and fulfills his/her potencial.
_________________
Stormy Weather.

[ltp-008]

First let's take the States-the capitalism regime for example,through the history of the United States,the U.S.was once one of colonies of Great British,after their independent revolution,they established the naiton,most people in the States are offsprings of immigrants from all over the world,Why does the States succeed in economy ,politics and military?I think that because their people like independent,democracy and freedom.The achievements of developing the freedom and democracy in the States are not easy things to achieve,in the 1960s there were still human rights movements led by the human rights activist Luda King ,the States is not paradise in the world,she has many problems to solve,but the most important thing is that most Americans believe that everybody has equal rights and equal freedom,they all want to do their best to achieve America dream.It is the universal values which are freedom and democracy to make the America at the top of the world.

Second let 's take Mainland China for example,the communist socialism regime got their power by violence,they confiscated all fortunes from wealthy people in their country,they publicly said that every person in their country shares the fortune ,but in fact only small communist officals share the fortune,most ordinary people don't get the benefits from the socialism regime,it seems to be that what they said is a big lie,the socialism ideology doesn't work well.Due to their socialism ideology,the mainland China 's economy had been in collapse ,as I said in my last post,the China communist socialism regime wouldn't have been survived if they hadn't performed free-market oriented reform In which they strongly promote to develope private sections of economy which have dominated the Chinese economy for years,since then their economy has improved a lot.In mainland China,in terms of politics their regime is still a dictatorship regime which their people don't have freedom and democracry ,their governments are not elected by their people ,but in terms of economy their regime has been capitalism regime in which everyone can become entrepreneur.

Third I don't know much about Latin America,but I think that it is not America false for Latin America not to develope very well.If people in Latin America intend to make their countries become socialism regimes,it is a very wrong choice ,obviously the socialism ideology doesn't work well,there have been a lots of evidences in which communist regimes fell into failures.

Fourth ,ClarissaMach ,thanks for your nice words I also enjoy your posts

[Manuel]

A communist goverment is not the same than a socialist goverment. For example, the president of Uruguay is a socialist president and his country doesn�t have problems with Liberty and Democracy. You have to remember that Communism was born from Socialism, but they are not the same thing.
The whole idea of Capitalism sounds great, and, as Asterix says, it seems to be the one in tune with people thoughts. But there�s a long way between the idea and the facts. How often do you see a person born in poverty who reaches the top of society?
As Clarissa says, a goverment should provide to every person who belongs to this society the chance to fight for his dreams. And I would add to this sentence something more: a goverment should also allow other countries to achieve this same thing. And here is when I�m talking about "Empires", which are no longer former empires, but who continue trying to control other foreign countries by war or economical issue, without allowing foreign people to develop.

[ClarissaMach]

Itp, you gave very clear explanations for your point of view and I appreciate that. But let me explain why I don't agree with everything at all:

[ltp-008]

First ,as asterix said that capitalism was in tune with huam nature,they promote every individual to achieve their goals,but the question is whether every person has equal chance to succeed ,so the government has to play a vital role in this issue and guarantee every individual to have equal chance to succeed in their careers.

Second,about the different between socialism and communism,distinguishing them is very important for us to understand how these two regimes function.Communist regimes such as Cuba,North korea and China are governments which are not elected by their people ,they suppress their political opponents ,they control all media in their countries,they only allow their people to watch ,listen and read media which are under their control.But socialism regimes such as Uruguay as Manuel said are governments which are elelcted by their people,this regimes are legal regimes,their people have liberty and freedom.So the communist regimes are dictatorship regimes in which their people don't have the rights of freedom and democracy ,I still think communist regimes are social cancers,they slow down social progress,oppress their people.

Third,asterix ,have you ever found any communist countries in which their governments or leaders are elected by their people ?If you have found one,please tell me.

Fourth,ClarissaMach,it seems like our differents are dwindling.

[ClarissaMach]

Yes, they are dwindling.

Well, I must agree with you that we still haven't seen democratic socialist experiences when it comes to reality. I'm listening to an audiobook of the "Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei" right now and the socialist ideas expressed by Marx sound very reasonable in the theory, but we still haven't seen it truly working out when it comes to the real world.

On the other side, there's a lot of capitalist countries in which there's no democracy, either. Actually, as Asterix said above, before Fidel Castro, Cuba was dictatorship under Fulgencio Batista. And life there was worse than it is now, it seems.

So, I believe you might say "the real socialism has proven to be a disease", if you consider lack of democracy a disease. But don't deceive yourself believing "the capitalism is the cure for it", cause it's surely not. Das ist die Hauptsache.
_________________
Stormy Weather.