Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[CP]

In a couple of posts earlier this year, someone said that the Koran is proof that Allah exists because it tells about various things such as scientific facts that Muhammad learned from Allah that he never could have known otherwise, since he was illiterate and presumably not very well educated.

I thought that was very interesting and asked the poster for examples of these scientific facts. However, the poster never answered me.

Such information in the Koran would be very powerful, I think. I do not claim to be an expert in the Bible, but I don't think the Bible has anything in it that we know as scientific fact now that would not have been known to Jesus (or other figures) back then.

Does anyone else know the Koran well? Can anyone cite me to parts of the Koran that mention scientific (or other) facts that Muhammad learned from visiting Allah?

Thank you very much.

Yours truly,

CP

[Anuradha Chepur]

I know nothing about Koran, though I have a copy of it gifted by a student. I would like to know though.

You will not find scientific facts in the Bible presented in modern day science jargon or register. But people have observed that some facts in the Bible do seem to correspond to some scientific facts. Creation, for instance, the Bible says God created the world and then in six days he created plants and then all the animals in an order and then on on the last day he created man. Does this not perfectly correspond with Darwin's theory?
The most questioned virgin birth of Jesus seems to correspond with parthenogenesis - asexual reproduction, according to some christians I know.

There is a lot of instruction in the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Geeta, on personality development, composure, management skills, etc. To pick up these skills, people today, are going to classes and paying through their nose, as without a personality they won't get selected in job interviews.
There is something in the Mahabharatha that corresponds to a laptop with a webcam! In the Kurukshetra war, there is this Brahmastra (astra=weapon), that matches an atom bomb. You can go on and on

[beancurdturtle]

I was raised as a Christian. I remember how prophesy was interpreted to "prove" that the Christian "Holy Bible" was "the word of God." For example, here's a little bit from the Book of Revelations:

[ClarissaMach]

I was raised as a Christian, too. But some things in the Bible never made sense to me. How can the Bible say that the world was created in seven days if the sun was created only in the fourth day? I mean, the first three days, why were they named days if there was no sun yet?

I don't mean to be offensive, but to me, the Bible, the Koran or the Torah have all the same value. As books, they're very interesting; but I would never be able to live my life according to what they say. First, because these books were written a long time ago, in eras very different from ours. Second, because the book might be perfect, but what each person reads from it is certainly different (therefore, human, and therefore, imperfect).

Although I respect the others' religion, I can't help feeling a little bit astonished when someone tells me he/she lives his/her life following exactly what the Bible/Koran/Torah/Whatever says. But I guess those who believe probably feel the same towards me ("How can you not believe in anything? How come?).

Long live alterity!
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Stormy Weather.

[CP]

Dear Beancurd Turtle,

As you said, "We were taught that the prophet was actually describing modern war helicopters in the only way he knew how."

Let's see:

"9:3 Locusts came out of the smoke onto the land, and they were given the same power as scorpions of the earth." Scorpions have the power to sting animals and kill some small animals with their stings. Helicopters have no stingers, but some of them are armed. No points.

"9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or any tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads." Armed helicopters devastate plant and animal alike, and no forehead markings have yet been found to protect a person from machine-gun fire from a helicopter. Maybe that's coming in the future. No points; loss of 2 points for gross inaccuracy. Score -2.

"9:5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torment them for five months; 4 the torment they inflicted was like that of a scorpion when it stings a person." Helicopters that rain fire and death upon people are not only "allowed to kill them" but never "torment them for five months" only. Loss of 2 more points for gross inaccuracy. Score -4.

"9:6 During that time these people will seek death but will not find it, and they will long to die but death will escape them." No, death does not escape most of them caught by helicopters' weaponry. Score -5.

"9:7 The appearance of the locusts was like that of horses ready for battle. On their heads they wore what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces," No human faces that I can see. Crowns of gold? The whirling blades? Score -6.

"9:8 and they had hair like women's hair. Their teeth were like lions' teeth," No, no hair; no teeth on helicopters. Score -7.

"9:9 and they had chests like iron breastplates. The sound of their wings was like the sound of many horse-drawn chariots racing into battle." Chests of metal, yes. I haven't heard many chariots racing into battle, but helicopter wings do make noise. Give the Bible a point. Score -6.

"9:10 They had tails like scorpions, with stingers; with their tails they had power to harm people for five months." Helicopter tails are not curled up like scorpion tails, and they do not have stingers. They have little vertical blades that twirl around to keep the helicopter from spinning like a top from the rotation of the main horizontal blade. Score -7.

Far more inaccuracies than accuracies. All in all, not a very convincing description or explanation.

What about the Koran, though? I'm sure the Koran must have something better than this, as my original post asked about. Anybody?
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[beancurdturtle]

[CP]

Beancurd Turtle,

Thank you. I didn't perceive that you believed the interpretation, so I'm sorry if I miscommunicated. I've read the Bible and remember that passage from Revelations, but never would have interpreted it as predicting modern war helicopters, so I thought it would be a useful exercise to examine the interpretation.

I was also surprised by the poster who, in more than one post, asserted that the Koran had Muhammad talking about many things, including many scientific facts, that he learned from Allah and could not have known about otherwise. If so, great. Maybe I'll convert, too. But she never answered my several requests for specifics.

There are many Muslims who post here, and more who read but do not often post, I am sure. Some of them and some non-Muslims who are familiar with the Koran must know what the poster meant. It can't be a secret. I just want to know the answer.
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[ad-miral]

The Koran says nearly all things in the world. It's important how the people understand it. Terrorists understand it wrong, and they do violence to others.

[ClarissaMach]

[CP]

Dear Ad-miral,

You said: "The Koran says nearly all things in the world. It's important how the people understand it. Terrorists understand it wrong, and they do violence to others."

Does the Koran say anything about scientific facts or information that Muhammad could not have known until Allah revealed it to him?

Can anyone answer my question? Thank you.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[asterix]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/islam.html
should be interesting to you CP.
As you suspect, the claims are spurious.

[ad-miral]

http://www.nur-koran.de/

One of the proves about the authorship of God can be found in this site here.

It says:
The book is mathematically constructed. It contains the prime number 19, which codes the arabic text. This coding is unremakable and very interesting.
For example: The word "month" (Schar) can be found 12 times.
The word "day" (jaum) can be found 365 times.
The word "days" (jauman, ajjam) can be found 30 times.
"Angel" can be found 88 times, "Satan" can be found 88 times.
"this life"(Dunja), "next life" (Achira) can be found 115 times each.
"justice" (Qest) and injustice can be found 15 times each.
"sun" (Schams) and "light" (Nur) can be found 33 times each.

The mathematical construction, being based on the prime number 19, is the main subject of the 74th chapter.

This mathematical construction has been discovered in 1974 by Raschad. The roots of this word R-SCH-D has been used in Koran 19 times.
There has been 1406 years since the first disclosure to the discovery of Koran. (19*74) years.
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If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love

[CP]

Dr. Chepur wrote: "Creation, for instance, the Bible says God created the world and then in six days he created plants and then all the animals in an order and then on on the last day he created man. Does this not perfectly correspond with Darwin's theory?"

Respectfully, I would have to say no.

From the Web site
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201:1&version=31 , I read Genesis 1, New International Version. It begins (footnotes omitted here):

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning�the first day.

The universe was billions of years old before the Earth appeared, according to science; but according to the Bible, they were created at the same moment. The Earth existed before light, according to the Bible, although scientists say that light existed from right after the Big Bang, well before Earth made its debut.

I won't quote the rest of it, but this is what it says, in substance:

On the second day, after the Earth already existed, God created the sky. On the third day, He separated land from water and created all the vegetation on Earth. I'm pretty sure there were all sorts of organisms swimming around on Earth, according to scientists, before the first carrot sprang up, so the Bible can't be right here.

On the fourth day, after the Earth and all its vegetation were fully formed, God created the Sun and the Moon. No one believes that the Sun did not exist long before the first carrot, not to say long before the Moon was formed.

On the fifth day, all the birds and creatures of the sea were created. The narwhal and the chickadee and the sea lion and the eagle all existing at the same time, and before any other animal on Earth, just exactly like scientists say it didn't happen.

On the sixth day, He created the Earthly animals and mankind. So the rooster walked the Earth one day before the first brontosaurus did. And man and brontosaurus were created on the same day, not separated by millions of years.

With the chronology given in the Bible, I don't think you can say that it corresponds with the order of creation according to science. Yes, humans are listed last, and plants are listed before humans, but everything else is out of whack.

By the way, I understand (but have not confirmed personally) that the order of creation in the Koran is similar to or identical to that in the Bible, so does not correspond with the scientific view. Perhaps someone with intimate knowledge of the Koran can enlighten us on that point.

Thank you.
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[Anuradha Chepur]

OK, there are some discrepancies in addition to some crude similarities. The language is figurative I guess. A day is actually a long chapter on the time scale - not the earthly day, but a day in terms of the universe.

[Mariam]