Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[beancurdturtle]

Mandarin vs. English - 可爱的大头美国人 says...

The other day I was commenting about language and culture in another space. I thought it was interesting enough to share here.

Chinese is a beautiful language. Like Chinese people it has it's own character. The "words" are flexible - to fully know the meaning of a phrase you need to know the context and circumstance of where it is spoken. It is naturally poetic. To understand common spoken Chinese language better, you need to look for the context and what is hinted at - look for what is not said. Understanding Chinese language is like understanding a Chinese person, you need to know the history and culture of China (the context) to better appreciate both the language and the people.

English is not flexible. It is often quite literal. Many of the words are borrowed from different languages and cultures. The language English (unlike Chinese) has a loose cultural core, so careful word choice and grammar means much more than context and circumstance. English can be beautiful and poetic but it takes more effort and exposure to make it so - because English is naturally a clumsy language. So English speaking people are typically much more direct and exaggerated in speech and action than Chinese speaking people. To understand Westerners better you need to realize that we often use big words, exaggerations, and boasting - it's part of our culture. To understand common spoken English better you need to listen to literally what is said, and not so much to how it is said. When you meet an American for example, subtract 20% from the big face they present and you will find there is a regular person underneath.

What do you think about the value of integrating context in conversation to improve understanding in Mandarin Chinese vs. English?

If English is your second language; what is your native language, and how important is it to know the culture of the person and the context of what is said in order to understand the deeper meaning of conversation?
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[RedRose]

I disagree about the saying.

Some American people ain't that direct either. Take a clip of a beautiful mind (an American movie) for example, let's see what the characters say:

the context: John Nash is hanging out with his classmates in some bar, a beautiful blonde sits in the corner. John Nash's fellows urged him to go for the girl, and John did. here's the conversation:

John Nash ( keeps silence for a while, and seems to have nothing to say).......
The girl: Maybe you wanna buy me a drink?
John Nash: we are talking about liquid exchange, ain't we? so let's just go straight to sex.
The girl: oh, that was sweet. (sudderly, the girl slaps on John's face) Have a nice day, a-s-s-h-o-l-e!!

You see, even a native American girl can't stand such a direct request

If John Nash first buys the girl a drink, and then they start talking about weather, music, family or something like that, and then John is supposed to tell the girl how beautiful she looks... after a few days of getting along together, then it's right time to start liquid exchange. maybe that would be a nicer way for a relationship.

[beancurdturtle]

[RedRose]

oh? what's American courtship language like? I am really interested in that. what would an American guy say when he wants to date a girl?

im my opinion, a beautiful mind is very good. mabey it's because the lead actor is too attractive you know, I am a woman, and I am straight, so I always focus on those charming boys, even when I am watching a movie. I just can't help it

BTW, you got my nickname very well. and redrose is the real meaning of my real name.

[beancurdturtle]

[RedRose]

yes, it's so sad that I have no chance to date both of you and Russell Crow. but I will keep trying since I am so energic

Speaking of courtship language, thank you for your explanation. then all men in the world just think about one thing at that nice moment, I got it.

I heard a story which happened between a chinese boy and a chinese girl. of course in their first phase(no sex yet)

they were hugging and kissing, and the girl asked the boy:"what are you thinking about right now?"

"the same thing as you are thinking about." answered the boy.

PA! the girl slapped on the boy's face and she said:"you pervert!"

Maybe that's an example that Chinese girl are shy or conservative?

[beancurdturtle]

[asterix]

I disagree with you when you say English is not flexible, and that it is clumsy. It has many subtle shades of meaning that often cannot be exactly translated into other languages.
I would say it is very flexible indeed.
The fact that it borrows words from other languages surely makes it more flexible, rather than less so?

[beancurdturtle]

Your assertions are correct.

I did a poor job in explaining what I mean by "English is not flexible." I was comparing English to Mandarin. In Chinese the meaning of a brief phrase may be completely different in one context as compared to it's meaning in another context. Where the meaning of a phrase in English doesn't stretch as much from one context to another.

Chinese poets use this phenomenon for example to write poetry with complex and often humorous double meanings. Trying to translate them to English is probably mind boggling. I can only imagine - I don't translate, but I read different translations of Chinese classics. Maybe I can find an example later when I have more time - or perhaps a Chinese reader of this post can provide one.

I love the English language - it's my native language and seems to be yours as well. Writers use it best when they know how to break the rules effectively and use it's complexity to their advantage. I've seen your writing - you probably understand this better than me.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[BourneNOIR]

Speaking of language and culture... I just find it interesting that beancurdturtle you seem to use simplified Chinese in your posts. Not that I have anything against simplified Chinese, I'm just curious if you learned simplified Chinese here in the States or elsewhere.

Since we're on this subject, I just feel that traditional Chinese has more cultural and artistic values to it due to its evolution from the first pictographs. The characters themselves have gone through eras of transformation after transformation. Since the characters originated from pictographs, each character is a picture by itself representing a complete idea - a form of art, carefully balanced to have harmony with the flow of Chi/Qi (a traditional Chinese idea/concept). The characters are complicated to draw/write because each part has it own purpose and meaning. While simplified Chinese may have its merits in certain areas, since you spoke of the "beauty", "culture", and "history" of the Chinese language I just thought that I should bring this up.

國 vs 国 (nation)
頭 vs 头 (head)
農 vs 农 (agriculture)
雜 vs 杂 (mixed)
東 vs 东 (east)
歷 vs 历 (past/history)
龍 vs 龙 (dragon)
and of course
氣 vs 气 (gas or "Chi/Qi")

[RedRose]

I have learnt simplified Chinese language for years since I was 5 years old. I have never learnt Tranditional Chinese language. but weirdly, I know many tranditional Chinese characters in common use, and most Chinese people from Mainland are in the same boat as me. I wonder why?

I used to chat with a HongKong guy on MSN, whose english was pretty good by the way, sometimes I felt it hard to desbribe something in english, so I typed simplified Chinese to describe it, and he could get it very well! and he'd never learnt simplified Chinese either!!

I am confused.

[BourneNOIR]

Yes, I guess once you learn one form you can still grasp the same idea/concept from the other without even learning it. After all, they're the same "words" and they're somewhat related, one just has the strokes and/or structure modified to make it simpler to write.

[BourneNOIR]

RedRose, I think you know many traditional Chinese characters in common use because you've probably subconsciously been exposed to them in signs and other literatures... or if you've been to a museum you've probably subconsciously picked them up when you see the inscriptions on the exhibits... just a guess.

I mean, Chinese characters are like pictures (actually, they are pictures) when you see them a couple of times, especially for someone with Chinese background, you'll unknowingly pick them up. I know this because I can read modern literature as well as classics in traditional Chinese, but my writing skill is that of a second grade. Why? Because I've picked up most of my Chinese by watching videos with Chinese subtitles, and through time the characters have subconsciously imprint themselves in my mind.

[beancurdturtle]

[RedRose]