Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[nawee]

Hello,

I have always thought that "very delicious" is redundant because "delicious" already means "tasting very good". But I have seen/heard it more and more. Should it be discouraged among language learners?

Thank you,

Nawee

[pinenut]

[dalawrie]

I'm currently teaching the use of 'absolutely' 'really' 'quite' very very' to my Chinese students. I put a mixed bag of 5 sentences with absolutely, extremely, very... on the board and asked them to vote on which were right and wrong in their use of these qualifiers- they even thought 'She is very very happy' was wrong.

As to 'My teacher is extremely helpful.' (which they thought wrong), I trust they judged that grammatically!

For those of us who have been in China 'very delicious' even begins to sound right once you've been asked 'Do you think Chinese food is very delicious?' more than a 1000 times. And there are many occurences of it on the internet. But clearly there are limits- 'very perfect' is not acceptable, nor is 'very terrible'.

Michael Swan's Practical English Usage of course distinguiishes 'gradable' amd 'non-gradable' adjectives, but nowhere yet can I find a clear list. Elsewhere, a definition as to whether there is a comparative form is used.
In Chinese you can use 'hen' (very) with ANY adjective.

To me, giving Chinese students a range of qualifiers more than 'very' is something that increases their range of expression, together with the range of emphatic intonation that they enjoy.

The following is from the internet:

Which adverb to use?
As a rule of thumb, the common grading adverbs extremely, very, rather, slightly and a bit, which emphasize degrees of a particular quality, don�t usually occur with non-gradable adjectives, since non-gradable adjectives identify a particular type or an absolute quality. Compare the following examples with non-gradable and gradable adjectives:

non-gradable gradeable
This food is extremely superb. This food is extremely tasty.
I found a very roman coin. I found a very shiny coin.

On the other hand, common non-grading adverbs such as completely, totally and absolutely, which emphasize absolute qualities, do not usually occur with gradable adjectives, since gradable adjectives describe qualities which can be measured in degrees. Compare the following examples with gradable and non-gradable adjectives:

non-gradable gradable
This book is absolutely excellent. This book is absolutely interesting.
The exercise was completely impossible. The exercise was completely difficult.

One further important thing to remember is that the commonly used adverb really, and the adverbs fairly and pretty (an informal variant of fairly) are regularly used with both gradable and non gradable adjectives, e.g.:
Well, I should mention first that I'm merely an English learner as a second language, not a linguistic or grammatical specialist. I guess you're reacting to the phrase in my blog �native speakers feel something is wrong about �very delicious��, since you think that �very delicious� has generally accepted within the language. However, I learnt the gradable and ungradable adjectives from native English teachers in English language school, where you may not think natural English is being taught, and they told me that I should never use �very delicious� because of a sense of discomfort toward native speakers.

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From a Chinese 'blog':
Now, let me express my opinion about your question. I suppose it is very difficult to give a clear-cut definition as to whether some expressions such as �very delicious� have already been accepted in general. As an example, expressions tend to become accepted much more quickly in spoken language than in written language. If this is the case, how can we deal with this issue? I'm not sure but if I had to share my belief, historically or grammatically incorrect expressions should be accepted not only in spoken language but also in written language. In this case, �very delicious� may be accepted in spoken language but not in written one. That's why gradable and ungradable adjectives are still taught in language school and I took up this topic in my blog.

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Clearly there are combinations everyone would accept as wrong. I would suggest exposure to 'bad' English changes our sensitivity to what is 'right'. But then, the profusion of 'bad' English will change English itself. Consider -This is a freeware' 'There are many freewares available'. This is very very common on the internet. And I thought freeware, like shareware, furmware and software, was uncountable. No one, however, seems to talk about 'hardwares' - yet!
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David A Lawrie

[nawee]

Thank you ever so much for your reply, Dalawrie.

Nawee