Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Seiichi MYOGA]

A dictionary says (1) is wrong. But I think (2) is OK.
Do you agree?

(1) Get there early, otherwise, you won’t get a good seat.
(2) Get there early, otherwise you won't get a good seat.

Thank you in advance
Seiichi MYOGA

[CP]

I would puncutate it this way:

"Get there early; otherwise, you won't get a good seat."

You have two distinct but connected thoughts; a semicolon is called for.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[Seiichi MYOGA]

Dear CP,

I appreciate your help and comments.

Can I ask something?

What if we were to change the negative sentence after "otherwise"?

Now do you accept (3)?

(3) Get there early, otherwise you will get a bad seat.

Seiichi MYOGA

[CP]

I still would punctuate it with a semicolon and comma:

3. "Get there early; otherwise, you will get a bad seat."

I know some people would use just one comma where I have the semicolon, but to me, it's not enough.

The semicolon often takes the place of ", and" or ", or" or ", for", etc.

In these sentences, you could re-write them with ", for":

"Get there early, for otherwise, you will get a bad seat." You have two independent clauses, each of which would stand on its own, and I think they need to be coordinated with the right conjunction and/or with the right punctuation.

My punctuation leaves no doubt what you are saying, and I don't think anyone will be bothered by it. With just one comma, some readers (like me) would be a little bothered, and you don't want that. You want the reader to carry on reading, not stop and question your writing.

(In my humble opinion! Others may disagree, and I'd like to see what they have to say about this topic.)
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[river1974]

I would write it this way:
"Get there early, or you will get a bad seat."
I totally agree with CP on that there must be a conjunction and/or semicolon between two independent clauses, or it would be ungrammatical.

[Seiichi MYOGA]

Dear CP and river1974,

I appreciate both of your help and comments.

I actually slept on it.

Now I think I know something. Can I ask one last question for this thread to verify my understanding?

I think now you will accept both (3a) and (3b). Do you?

(3) a. I'd better write it down, otherwise I'll forget it.
b. Phone home, otherwise your parents will start to worry.
(Both are cited from LDOCE.)

Seiichi MYOGA

[Mary W. Ng]

I'd have punctuated these sentences the same way as CP and put a semicolon before otherwise. However, according to "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language" by Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech, and Svartvik, otherwise is one of those adverbs that link two closely related independent clauses but use a comma before them. Other adverbs that behave similarly are nor, neither, and hence.

I hope this helps.
_________________
Mary W. Ng
Helping students learn grammar
http:www.aimpublishing.com

[CP]

I understand that some people will use just the one comma with these kinds of constructions, and some will use two, one before and one after "otherwise." But I will stick to my punctuation, and for the reasons that I already stated. See, for example,
http://198.85.71.76/english/punctuationguide.html,
where you will find this:

1. Use a semi-colon to join sentences that are related in meaning and to give each part of the the new sentence equal emphasis.
a. Use a semi-colon to join two sentences without using any transitional word:
� Eat a diet rich in carbohydrates the day before the race; the gold medal will be won by the runner who has plenty of energy.

b. Use a semi-colon to join two sentences with a long transitional word such as however, therefore, and otherwise. In addition, use a comma after the transitional word because it interrupts the flow of the second sentence. Notice that although the meaning of the first part of the sentence stays the same, the second part of the sentence changes with different transitional words.
� Eat a diet rich in carbohydrates the day before the race; however, don't eat so much that you can't sleep the night before.
� Eat a diet rich in carbohydrates the day before the race; therefore, you will have plenty of energy to carry you through the race.
� Eat a diet rich in carbohydrates the day before the race; otherwise, you may find that you have run out of energy before you have finished the race.
� Note: Instead of being used between two sentences, however and the other transitional words listed above can be placed between the subject and verb of a sentence. In that type of sentence, use a comma before and after the transitional word:
� Eat a diet rich in carbohydrates the day before the race; don't eat so much, however, that you can't sleep the night before.
� Eat a diet rich in carbohydrates the day before the race; you will have plenty of energy, therefore, to carry you through the race.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[Seiichi MYOGA]

Hi Mary,

Thank your for your help.

Actually, Quirk et al.(1985) is my favorite book.

I think you mean Quirk et al. (1985:923):Other adverbs which behave similarly are or (cf 13.18 ), otherwise, neither , only (as a conjunct), and hence. Regrettably, they give us no examples that will support their idea.

Do you accept (3) and (4)?

(3) a. You'll have to go now, otherwise you'll miss your bus.(LDOCE)
b. Put your coat on, otherwise you'll get cold. (LDOCE)
(4) a. I'd better write it down, otherwise I'll forget it. (CALD)
b. Phone home, otherwise your parents will start to worry. (CALD)
(I'm sorry that I had wrongly labeled (4a) and (4b) as LDOCE in one of my previous posts.)

Seiichi MYOGA

[Seiichi MYOGA]

Dear CP,

I appreciate your help and comments.

I'd like you to help me clear something up so that I can follow you.

I'm not sure if you will judge (3) and (4) the same way as you did with (5).

The forms are seemingly the same, but the closeness in which two ideas are connected by "otherwise" seems to be different. So I think unlike (5), you will accept (3) and (4).

(3) a. You'll have to go now, otherwise you'll miss your bus.(LDOCE)
b. Put your coat on, otherwise you'll get cold. (LDOCE)
(4) a. I'd better write it down, otherwise I'll forget it. (CALD)
b. Phone home, otherwise your parents will start to worry. (CALD)
(5) *Get there early, otherwise you [won't get a good seat/will get a bad seat].

Do you? That is my first question.

And the other one is about one of your examples.

If Quirk et al. (1985:923) were to be right, unlike "however" or "therefore, " we would have to retain "otherwise" in situ.

(6) Eat a diet rich in carbohydrates the day before the race; otherwise, you may find that you have run out of energy before you have finished the race.

So (7a), (7b) or whatever will be ungrammatical regardless of the presence or otherwise of commas.

(7) a. ..., you may(,) otherwise(,) find...
b. ..., you may find(,) otherwise(,) that...

Am I right?

Seiichi MYOGA

[CP]

You asked several times whether we would accept the sentences with commas, for one reason or another, but I would not substitute a comma for the semicolon in any of the "otherwise" sentences.

Whether short or long, whether closely connected or not, all these "otherwise" sentences involve two independent clauses joined together into a single sentence. They could be separate sentences, or they could be joined with various words and appropriate punctuation. A couple of examples, taken from the previous posts, with a couple of variations that do not change the meaning:

"You'll have to go now. Otherwise, you'll miss your bus."
"You'll have to go now; otherwise, you'll miss your bus."
"You'll have to go now. If you don't, you'll miss your bus."
"You'll have to go now; if you don't, you'll miss your bus."

"I'd better write it down. Otherwise, I'll forget it."
"I'd better write it down; otherwise, I'll forget it."
"I'd better write it down. If I don't, I'll forget it."
"I'd better write it down; if I don't, I'll forget it."

I am not the final authority on punctuation, and I'm sure people will disagree with me, but I think my previous posts follow the normal conventions for punctuation used by most authors. Note that Mary W. Ng and River1974 both said that they would punctuate the "otherwise" sentences exactly the same way as I, although Ms. Ng found a grammar book that gave a different view.

Your dictionary said that using just a comma was wrong, and that Web site that I cited says the same thing. People may disagree about such things, and I don't think you will be arrested by the Punctuation Police if you use a comma rather than a semicolon. If you are arrested, just show them Quirk, et al. -- your Get Out Of Jail Free card.

I suggest using a semicolon; otherwise, you may use up your quota of commas too soon.

As for your sentences 7a and 7b, there is nothing ungrammatical about moving "therefore" or "otherwise" to later in the sentence and setting it off in commas.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[Mary W. Ng]

Dear Seiichi:

As I said in my previous post, I'd have punctuated the sentences the same way as CP did. While I agree that the examples you listed are correct, I believe using a semicolon in those sentence are perfectly fine.

Since not all readers know that otherwise is preceded by a comma, they might be led to think that the sentence has a comma fault. That is why using a semicolon is preferable, I think.
_________________
Mary W. Ng
Helping students learn grammar
http:www.aimpublishing.com

[Mary W. Ng]

Dear Seiichi,

I'm glad that "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language" is your favourite book. It is a very useful reference.

I had a typo in my previous post. There is a subject-verb agreement error: the verb are in "I believe using a semicolon in those sentence are perfectly fine" should be changed to is. Sorry about that.
_________________
Mary W. Ng
Helping students learn grammar
http:www.aimpublishing.com

[lotus]

Hi Seiichi MYOGA,

Might I interject.

CP's comments are very useful. There is some latitude in punctuation. But; in my humble opinion, punctuation is used mainly to duplicate speech. It's the closest we'll get to expressing verbal nuances in writing. When there is genuinely a pause in thought or speech, I would not hesitate to use a semicolon.

You can read all the grammar books in the world. But, punctuation comes with practice, and in writing consistantly. And, in time, it will become part of your style as a writer.


--lotus

[Seiichi MYOGA]

Dear CP and Mary,

I appreciate both of your help.

Your comments are very interesting. And after having carefully read them, I think there might likely be two kinds of native speakers.

Do you interpret (ia) as meaning (ib)?

(i)a. You'll have to go now; otherwise, you'll miss your bus.
b. You'll have to go now, for/because you'll otherwise miss your bus.

Seiichi MYOGA

Actually, dictionaries and grammar books give examples that have the following pattern:
(ii) S(entence denoting an order or suggestion), otherwise S(entence denoting the bad thing that will happen if you don't follow that order or suggestion).

I'll quote some, for example.

(iii) a. You'll have to go now, otherwise you'll miss your bus.(Longman)
b. I'd better write it down, otherwise I'll forget it. (Cambridge)
c. Shut the window, otherwise it'll get too cold in here. (Oxford)
d. do what I tell you, otherwise you'll be sorry (Merriam-Webster)

My original aim was to find out how to fix (1); I had not anticipated anything about another form of "S; otherwise, S."

I think native speakers who accept the form "S, otherwise S" given above interpret "otherwise" as being related with "choices" and meaning "or (else)."