Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[James.E]

Hi, I met the problem when reading a book, for students preparing for IELTS test, on writing argument essay.
According to the book, the author's view is that even if you can not counter a particular argument that does not matter.And just write such argument in your conposition, that will be ok.
How do you think about this view?
Wating for your comment.

There are two paragraphs of the model answer the author cited. The first one, I think, is ok, because it has an opposite argument followed the counter argument, which supports the main idea of the article, that is opposing the death penalty. The second one, however, just consists one argument that supports the death penalty, no contradiction at all.So I think the paragraph does not support the main idea.And It should not be add in the essay.

Now, the abridged verson:
introduction......

The main reason usually given in support the death penalty is that it deters crime. However, if we look at statistics fromm around the world the evidence is rather mixed. ...... Many Americans and non-Americans suggest that stricter gun control laws in the US would have a greater effect on reducing crime than the death penalty has.

......
Another argument used by advocates of capital punishment is that it prevents the criminal committing similar crimes in the future. This cannot be denied - it's pretty hard to committ a crime when you are dead. On the other hand, the criminal is not given the opportunity to make up for his/her crimes. Those who support capital punishment point out that the criminal has already used up his/her opportunities. Placing the criminal in prision is very costly. The time and money invested in rehabilitation may not have any effect. Why should we pay a fortune to keep a demonstrably dangerous psrson in prison for the rest of his/her life when our hospitals and schools are so short of cash?
......conclusion
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Marx says that a foreign language is a weapon in the struggle of life.

[asterix]

If the opposing view has an argument that cannot be countered, and it is a valid argument, are you sure you are arguing on the right side of the debate?
As you do your research, you may find that you are persuaded into changing your original opinion. In that case, you should argue your new opinion with the conviction and enthusiasm of the newly converted.
The question of putting people to death, is a complicated one, but it is against the Christian commandment "Thou shalt not kill", and so ought to be anathema to Christian societies. Furthermore, if you kill a man who has not committed the crime for which he is found guilty, then the state itself is a murderer, and there is no possibility that the mistake can be rectified.
The expense of housing criminals is indeed exorbitant - $50000 to $80000 per year, per criminal, in Canada, for example. To me, this reeks of inefficiency, and entrenched unions, but how do you fix it?

[Anuradha Chepur]

This is d�j� vu. My students somehow assume that debate is arguing for the heck of it, and you must stick to your standpoint, come what may.

A debate is not about arguing fanatically. It is about discussing objectively on a usually open ended subject. Writing skills is about being logical, coherent and clear. It is not about winning an argument, but about expressing your views, subject to change in the face of better logic.

And instead of the opponent presenting a counter, it is even better if you can present the counter yourself, and then show the imbalance that if there is only one counter, there are just many arguments in favor. For instance in the essay you quoted, the writer can go on that though there is a point in favor of death penalty, it is not sufficient, and the cons outweigh the pros.

�Do not argue with an idiot, he will not only bring you to his level, but also beat you with his experience.�

(I don�t intend to over-reply Asterix. I was interested in this post earlier when it was still unreplied, but I was a little pressed for time then.)

[James.E]

Thanks for the instructions.

Asterix's hint will be very useful for me in the future when I want to win a debate.
In addition, I am astonishing at the amount of the money spent for the living of criminals in Cananda. So it seems to be a very profitable business to run a prison there:)At least, I can not earn more than $50000 a year, neither can I spend that. By the way, I am not a criminal so far.

Thanks to Dr.Chepur's view on the essence of writing - "logical, coherent and clear, I can make sure that the author's view is reasonable and believable. Thank you, Dr.Chepur.By the way, what is "d�j� vu"?and do you do something related to the IELTS test in your work?
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Marx says that a foreign language is a weapon in the struggle of life.

[CP]

It is not profitable to run a prison; it is costly. The government owns and runs the prisons. It is not as though the prisoners are paying for their luxurious accommodations. The taxpayers are.
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[James.E]

I don't know whether it would be one of the problems that chinese have to meet with in the future.However, for now, the prisoners here(china pr) work for their prisons, and as far as I know, deficit in the prisons is less concerned, I mean maybe there is even no such things in those prisons,at least no relevant report.
I've never seen a prison in US or Canada and have no idea about how magnificent they are. But I just keep wondering don't the habitants there work for their home?or they do work but they do not earn as much as the rent of the prisons they live.
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Marx says that a foreign language is a weapon in the struggle of life.

[Anuradha Chepur]

"d�j� vu"?

A feeling that the new situation you are in has happened before.

Yes, I've trained students for GRE, TOEFL, SAT and IELTS, though that is not my regular work.

[CP]

"I've never seen a prison in US or Canada and have no idea about how magnificent they are. But I just keep wondering don't the habitants there work for their home?or they do work but they do not earn as much as the rent of the prisons they live."

I used the word "luxurious" ironically, not literally. The accommodations are incredibly expensive, but not luxurious, at least from what I have seen in documentaries. I will do anything, including obey the law, to avoid finding out what jails and prisons are really like inside.

The inmates often work -- prisons have laundries, mess halls (dining halls), license-plate factories, even farms on them that must be worked -- and they are paid, but they do not pay rent for their fine clothing, food, lodging, and supervision. The citizens outside the prison walls (including me, for example) go to work and pay taxes on their income, and the taxes pay for the guards, the buildings, the beds, the food, etc.

I think the idea of making the prisoners pay for their prisons is a very good one, though.
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb