Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[mjbinsanjose]

The war in Chechnya is intractable. The Russian Federation granted Chechnyan's autonomy after a previous conflict. Due to the country turning into a terrorist state ( where activities including kidnapping for ransom were tolerated ) Russia re-invaded and conquered the country. Unfortunately, security forces only remain in the country for short tours of time. So bandits are able to operate freely. Common Russian soldiers often lack proper weapons and equipment. Russian officers have been known to sell weapons to bandits. Religious fanatics are in a constant jihad against Russia. I see no good solution.

I think that Israel will have similar problems in allowing the establishment of a powerful Palestinian state. They might just create another Chechnya.

I am an unusual American. I have only visited two overseas countries: Russia and Bulgaria.
_________________
A future English teacher from California.

[ilya]

[quote="Diana"]Do you really think that terrorism will decrease if the United States did not go to war against Saddam? So, you are a Russian. [/quote]

If I don`t think so, i would be a non-russian. Thank you very much. Because really i don`t think so. I think that the war against Iraq should have been and i would support this war if... There is one if. If you would started that war with a resoltion of UN. That you pull Saddam away of Iraq is very good. Thank you. But that you did it without a resolution is bad. You destroyed UN. This organisation is nothing now. Because Security Council`s countries such as: China can start the war against Taiwan`s isle and said: "America did, Why can not we". Their can easily justify this war saing that there are terrorists on that territory or they supposed there are WMD in Taiwan.
And what UN can do? Nothing. There are no limits for starting war now. That`s a bad. America can return in UN but the precendent (case) will stay for ever.
The other bad thing in this war is an increase of hatred of muslims to West World. The source of terrorism is hatred.
Your information about Chechnya is wrong. Terrorists have never bombed Russia (except Checnya territory) sinse the attack of Dagestan in August of 1999. They are fighting only in Chechnya. There was terract in Moscow last fall. That`s all. And all their bombs are terracts. You could not stop the atack by plans in New-York and it`s difficult do it if they shoot at nights and returned after that into forrests, if civil chechenian comes in the building with a small bomb and how can we stop him if he works there.
We can not win in this war untill Chechnya people cease becoming new terrorists and helping them. We can finish this war killing all of them or make peace with them. We have something like in Palestina but it`s even more difficult because we can not leave this region. We left Chechnya one time in 1996 and it led to attack of Russia and camps of terrorists in Checnya.
It`s easy to speak but it`s very difficult do it. Russia has not got such money as USA. Our military equipment is old, generals are corrupted, soldiers in army are beated by officers. I`d like to lesson to your advices and opnions. Thank you, Mjbinsanjose, for yours.

[Diana]

I agree with you in that it would be best if the United Nations were the one to take out Saddam. I never wanted the United States to be the world police. Unfortunately, the UN has not been a very good organization for the last 50 years or so. The UN has been dealing with Saddam for 12 years as Saddam continued to violate UN resolutions. It shouldn't take the UN 12 years to solve the problem with Saddam. And if the US decided to follow the UN, it will probably be another 12 years or maybe even 24 years before anything is done to get Saddam to obey UN resolutions. By allowing Saddam to continue violating UN resolutions without punishing him, the UN has already made themselves look weak. 12 years is too long! The UN should have done something about Saddam's violations in just one or two years.

I am not quite sure I understand what you mean when you say that Chechens are only attacking on Chechen territory? Why would they attack their own territory? I thought the Chechens were attacking Russians?

[ilya]

You think there is a war between Chechya and Russia. No, it has never been. The Chechnya is the part of Russia, it`s not independent country, it`s our own territory.
There are bandits (foreign terrorists and chechen bandits) who kill people. They are a very small part of Chechnya`s inhabitants (some thousands), and they are only on the territory of Chechen region. These terrorists kill not only Russian people but Chechens as well. All domestic police of Chechnya consists of Chechens and they strugle with these bandits first.
I wonder why you have such a poor and wrong info about what happens in Chechnya. But i`m not surprised because you government didn`t want even recognize that there were terrorists in Chechnya and did it only after the 11 of September. Yeah, American mass-media.....
OUN is nothing because there are countries who like to start wars. You should learn you own american history. And learn how many times America started wars.
If you had wanted started the war you should have proved you reasons better. If you said that Saddam was the tyrant and killed his own people, that he used WMD. And you wanted only make Iraq free from his tyranny. All people would agree with you, but you started to prove that there were WMD there. You introduced a resolution where there were only two reasons for starting the war: IMD and Iraq`s resistance. You introduced it yourself, you could write there something else, for example about Saddam`s tyranny, but you didn`t it. This is your fault. OUN followed the law: inspectors didn`t find IMD and Saddam allowed everything (even to come in his mantions).
And no one said about stopping inspections and the work about Iraq disarment. They should habe been to continue. But it was not advantage for USA because they had to wait till fall because of hot summer. That was a reason of starting war without resolutions.
And what 12 years are you talking about? All these years you were in USA worring about others problems. You recalled about Iraq one year ago. And inspections started only in December. What 12 years?
And what next 12 years? If you had proved his guilty compentently, the war would have started immidiately. And even France were against this war all others would have supported this war.
You didn`t find IMD, so you couldn`t even start the war. So, you presented wrong resolution. If you showed that he was a tyrant, Russia would support you immidiately (Putin said it many times).
And i expect America to start strugling with other dictatoric regimes round the world: in Zimbabve, Cuba and so on. You have Fidel Castro near you, but he has been ruling for 50 years. What about him? When are you going recall about him? Oh, it`s dangerous becouse he is near you bottom. I see. OK.

[Diana]

How easy for you to criticize America by saying we always start war. We didn't even start World War I or World War II. We were the ones who ended those two wars. I never really cared to study about Russia, but I do know much about America even though I don't live in the U.S. mainland. America is just like every country. The Americans have done both bad and good things - just like Russia who did bad and good things. One bad thing that Russia did was invaded Afghanistan. Invading Afghanistan was a very very BAD thing for the Russians to do.

Invading Iraq and taking out Saddam, on the other hand, was a GOOD thing, and the Iraqi people are not complaining. The only ones complaining about taking out Saddam are people like you who would rather have him in power. By the way, haven't you heard? France, Germany, and RUSSIA came out and publically said that it is a GOOD thing that Saddam is taken out as ruler of Iraq (thanks to the Americans and the British, of course).

Saddam has been playing "footsies" with the United Nations for 12 years. He has already violated 17 UN resolutions. How many resolutions does he have to violate before the UN say enough is enough? Saddam has already killed 1 million people. How many more people does he have to kill before the UN decide that he already killed too many?


To Vladimir and Obelix:
Hey, Vladimir and Obelix, we're starting the cold war again!!!

[ilya]

You are ignorant girl. Russia won the 2 world war. 26 millions russian people died on this war. We stopped the fasists and returned them in the Berlin. USA did nothing. You became rich on this war giving military credits, developing your industry on these credits. After this war there was no competition, you were alone and this war gave your growth. You even don`t know this field of history. America has started about 26 wars from the 2 world war till the war against Saddam. I said about these wars. Read some books and then returned.
You proved that comparing USSR and USA saying they are bad the same. USSR was a big evil. And Afganistan was the small piece of this evil. And you found it funny, people were killed there (and innocent soviet soldiers who died according to stupid orders of USSR government, who wants to have a world proletariat).
Amd i`m tired of your lie, lie, lie. I told you many times that i didn`t ever wanted Saddam to have stayed there. You don`t read my messages. I was patient with you and repeated you many times, but now it`s enough.
I think you are a teenager who like many americans don`t know history and think America won the 2 world war. You probably study on movies "Saving rivate Ryan".
You, America, waited for 12 years too. You could finish it in 1992. And you told me about 12 years of waiting the first. You recall about it only last summer.
SO, GO TO BOOKS.

[Diana]

You're the one who needs to go back and read the books! And what is this? Calling me "ignorant?" Did I call you any names? In World War I, your country pulled out and signed a treaty with Germany. Your country was a traitor in the eyes of the Allies when you signed a peace treaty with Germany after pulling out of the war. The Soviet Union pulled out and World War I wasn't even over. The US came in and ended it.

In World War II, your country and Britain were still fighting the Germans when America came in. It was America who ended the entire World War II by dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan

As for the Soviet soldiers who were killed in Afganistan, they were NOT INNOCENT. They were soldiers with weapons. NO SOLDIERS are considered innocent victims. NOT EVEN AMERICAN SOLDIERS! The innocent people who were killed were the Afghan children that the Russian soldiers killed when they left toy trucks and dolls around Afghanistan - TOYS THAT HAD BOMBS IN THEM!!!

[obelix]

I don't believe that Russia left booby trapped toys in Afghanistan. That is an old propaganda story that was used in WW2 against the Germans. It is always expedient to demonise the people you are trying to kill.
It is a fact that Russia lost between 15 and 30 million of its people in WW2. The highest losses of any nation. It is also true that the Russians got no help from the allies, except for a few aircraft etc..
Joseph Stalin was, like Churchill, a great leader. He was ruthless and killed many of his own people, but without that ruthlessness, Russia might not have prevailed. Let's face it, Russia beat the the greatest army the world had seen up to that time, fair and square.
I know that the Germans were fighting on two fronts, always a bad military situation, and Hitler interfered with his generals (even worse) but that does not diminish the victory.
With that victory Russia and the Soviet Union became a great power, England was bankrupt and dethroned as the ruler of the world and America made it its mission to fight communism wherever it appeared.
I have read many times that after the German surrender, Churchill suggested to attack Russia. In my opinion if he had tried to do that the British Army for one,would have refused, because the common soldier considered the Russians to be valiant allies and friends.
The question of who started a war is always difficult because often the answer is not clear.
America clients have been involved many small wars since and usually the Soviet Union has come to the aid of the other side against America and its allies, and vice versa. In this way the two great powers tested their new weapons and kept their arms industries alive.
Obviously, Ilya, you are a well educated man. I imagine that you are either a student of history or someone who has lived through some of it.
Unfortunately, as I said above, history is written by the victors but the vanquished also have their version.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle and each of us tends to believe what our own government is telling us.

[Diana]

Really, Obelix? The Russian soldiers didn't leave booby-trapped toys? I read about it in my National Geographic Magazine, and they photographed the toys. Hmmmmm......Maybe the Afghans left those toys around so they could blame the Russians in order to get more help from muslim fighters in other countries. The Afghan did the same thing when they put poison in some American food drops so they could blame the Americans. Perhaps, I am wrong about the Russians killing those Afghan children after all.

The common British soldier may have seen Russia as an ally, but apparently Churchill did not. At any rate, I can understand the Russians pulling out. They did lose a lot of men - more men than any of the Allies. But they didn't end World War I because it was still raging on even as the Soviet Union got out of it.

[obelix]

When you are dealing with islamic terrorists there is NOTHING they will not do, no matter how peyond the pale it is for civilized people. They know that our weakness is respect for life and especially the life of children. I expect the "Booby trapped toys" story was a complete fabrication or National Geographic was set up. I cannot imagine the Russians stooping to that level, but I can easily imagine the terrorists doing so.
Just look at their record.
Children's lives mean nothing to them.

[Thom]

Wow! I come back after four months and the first thing that happens is that I find myself agreeing with Obelix! Will these wonders never cease?

Anyway, Diana, the man has a point. You have to look at the possible motivations for killing Afghan children in this manner. Is it really that likely that Russian soldiers stole (and then wasted) explosives that were in short supply and then used them in a time-consuming booby-trap that would only kill children? They would have been more likely to sell them. Even then, the Soviets weren�t great at paying their troops. Booby trapping rations or discarded weapons makes perfect sense because it kills soldiers. The SAS used to do it to the IRA all the time back in the seventies. But Teddy bears?. Think about it. The mujahadeen on the other hand had every reason to do it. Think how angry that article made you. If it can have that effect on a woman from Guam twenty years on, imagine what it did to Afghans at the time.

One of the basic strategies of Guerrilla warfare in a situation like Soviet Afghanistan is to engage in attacks on your enemy which will result in reprisal atrocities against the oppressed civilian population because that repression is what gives the terrorists the popular support that they cannot operate without. Ho Chi Minh, one of the most effective Guerrilla leaders of the last centaury (defeated the French, Japanese, US and Cambodian armies) famously likened guerrillas to fish in the water of popular support. If that water dries up, the fish die. For the mujahadeen to commit atrocities against their own and to blame the Russians is the logical next step in this strategy.

That is why I've been saying for the last 21 months that the US should have shown more restraint after September the Eleventh. With every bomb that hit Afghanistan, every tank on Iraqi soil and every crude example of macho bluster that passes for a Bush speech, another wave of young Muslims were driven into the arms of the Bin Ladens of this world. Every action that the Bush Administration has taken has played right into their hands. With seven terrorist attacks in the last seven days, can we possibly believe that their strategy is working? The military option is a coward�s way out. A true leader would have faced up to the immense emotive impact of 9/11 and had the courage to break the circle of hate that has enveloped the world. History will be a harsh judge of George W Bush.

[Diana]

Hi Thom,
It's good to see you back again. Yes, I agree with Obelix about the Afghan terrorists using booby-trapped toys and blaming it on the Russians. After reading Obelix post, I realized I was wrong about the Russians. Terrorists don't have any morals or values, and it does sound like something they would do. The Afghanistan invasion by Russia was so long ago. I think I was only in high school when I read the magazine about those booby-trapped toys. I was very young then and did some stupid things, but apparently I still remember many of the things I read despite how long ago it was.

I agree that history will be the judge. It is hard to determine whether going to war against Iraq will increase terrorism or not. If for instance, America did not go to war in Iraq, would the terrorist leave us alone despite that the war in Israel is still going on and despite that our troops are still in Saudi Arabia? If we left Iraq alone, would Saddam be a bigger threat in the future or not? And if we had left Afghanistan alone and not gone to war, would Bin Laden leave the Americans alone or would they continue their attacks on America? If a Palestine State do exist in 2005, would that ease the hate of the Palestinians and the Arabs or would they think that they were cheated and didn't get enough out of the peace deal? Would the Arabs think that this roadmap is another one of America's interference or domination into the Arab world? I guess we will never know the answer to these questions, but it would certainly make an interesting discussion.

[ilya]

Diana, you are proud of falling ATOMIC bombs on Hirosima and Nagasaki? And smile about that. Read not journals but books. By the moment of falling atomic bombs the war has already been over (it was the 16 of July). German has already quited. The banner of the Red Army was on the roof of the Reihstag in May. Who held this banner? And how many miles did this russian soldier go? From Stalingrad till Berlin.
You fell bombs in order not to finish the war but to show USSR what weapon you had. I don`t see the point to discuss with you matters of peace and war if you insulted (yes, insulted) the memmory of soviet heroes with your ingnorance again. Every Russian family lost somebody on this war. The heroism of russian soldier won this war. How did they die? Do you know about that? How did they defend Stalingrad and Kursk? If they had lost Stalingrad, the war would have been over. But they stood till dead. I`m not going to discuss with you anything connecting with these problems.

Obelix, after this war USSR was completly destroyed. There was a horror hunger during the war and after the war. I think you can find the full story about this war in books.

[Diana]

The Americans dropped the atomic bombs on Japan not to show the Russians their weapons - but to get Japan to surrender, and that is a fact. Why should the Americans care about showing off their power to Russia in 1945 when they still had a fight to finish with Japan after what they did to Pearl Harbor and other US territories? World War II did not end in the defeat with Germany because the Allies were still fighting Japan. World War II ended on August 14, 1945 with Japan's surrender.

Germany was not an innocent country in World War II and neither was Japan. I am a Chamorro, Ilya. My people inhabit the entire Mariana Islands in the Western Pacific. Japan attacked my island just like they attacked China during World War II. The Japanese massacred my people - innocent men, women, and children. The Japanese enslaved and massacred the Chamorro people, who had nothing to do with World War II. They placed my family in concentration camps and were going to kill them had it not been for the Americans. The Japanese also murdered my uncle by beheading him. They raped many of the women in our villages and made them into comfort slaves. This is why I have NO regrets for Japan's defeat.

I really don't care if you don't discuss any of this with me, Ilya, because it seems that you didn't even know that Japan was an agressor just like Germany!

However, the Chamorros are not a hateful race. We have found peace with Japan despite that they were once our former enemy. Some of my people have even learned to speak the Japanese language.

[Thom]

Diana is right Ilya, Japan was an important part of the axis and Germany's defeat did not end the war. It is easy for we Europeans and Russians to concentrate on German atrocities but whilst Japanese war crimes thankfully failed to match the Holocaust in scale, they were no less brutal. They shared with the Nazis the belief that their victims were racially inferior yet unlike the Germans, have shown little remorse in the 55 years since their defeat. Some of my Chinese friends turn their backs when Japanese tourists come past, they will not even look at them.

On the other hand, I think you are mistaken in your defence of American atrocities (and that is precisely what they were) at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It has been revealed since 1945 that Japan had already sued for peace, with the condition that the Emperor should remain as the ceremonial head of state, much like the British monarch.

And so the traditional argument for the bombings is proved false. The Americans had claimed (and some still do) that it was necessary to prevent the great loss of life involved in invading Japan. Clearly that loss of life could have been just as easily prevented with the acceptance of the Japanese surrender and without the need for hundreds of thousands of deaths.

The answer, as Ilya has already pointed out, had nothing to do with Japan. The USSR was perceived by the allied leadership as a threat possibly even greater than fascism. Indeed, elements of the British cabinet, led by Lord Halifax, had argued extensively for a truce with Hitler to concentrate on the battle with Communism. In 1945 with the jugernaught of the red army rolling westwards through Europe, the allies knew that their conventional forces would be unable to stop it if Stalin chose to push on through Germany, Belgium and France. Even to England. The Soviets were now in a position to do what Hitler had never managed and so the decision was made to demonstrate that the U.S.A. had a weapon even more powerful than Soviet tank columns.