Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[someday]

Hello.
Pleas take a look at the following sentences.

John had a Jane's book in his bag.

1. He said that it was an accident.
2. He said that that was an accident.
3. He said that was an accident.
4. He said it was an accident.

Q. 1 Which one sounds strange to hear and which sounds the most
natural?
Q. 2 When would you choose pronoun "that" or "it" to refer to what you
mentioned previously?
Q. 3 To me, sentence 2 sounds awkward because there are two "that"s.
Sentence 3 also sounds a little strange too because there could be
two different "that"s : a complementizer or a pronoun. But the
listener could be confused which one the speaker is referring to.
What do you think?

Q4. Do you ever say "that" as a complemtizer in your speech, such as I
believe that...I think that....or you hardly ever use it? If you do,
when do you add or not add "that" in your speech and in your writing?

I'm sorry "that" there are too many questions.
As always, thank you so much, teachers or professors.

[asterix]

When you say, "he said" you are reporting what someone has said, without making it a direct quotation.

All the sentences you have written are OK, as far as the grammar goes, except you should probably have a comma after each instance of he said.

In your second sentence the second "that" is stressed more than the first, which is even de-stressed. If you were to speak the sentence you have written, it might sound like this:-
"He said, th't that was an accident."

Formerly, it used to be grammatically correct, when reporting speech, to always write, "he said that...And then report the speech. Over time it has become acceptable to omit that.

Sentences 2. and 3. refer specifically to the fact that Jane's book was in his bag - and the use of that stresses that THAT particular fact was an accident. He might also have done something else that was not an accident.

When I learned English, there was not a laissez-faire attitude towards grammar such as there is today. There were rules that, in formal writing and speech, you were expected to follow, or be thought ignorant by educated people.
Today, it is rather confusing for students when even the teachers do not agree what the current usage is. It's rather like playing a game of soccer where some referees penalise offside and some do not.

[asterix]

Incidentally, there is no such word as complementizer. You use, complement.

[lotus]

Hi someday,

In linguistics, a complementizer is a subordinating conjunction which introduces a subordinate complement clause. It can take the form of a relative pronoun such as "that." When it is omitted, it is an "empty" complementizer. The omission of "that" is a matter of style and usage.

In the second sentence, "that" serves as a conjunction and a pronoun. Since it's somewhat of a tongue-twister, number one would be more common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementizer
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAComplementizer.htm
http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/Linguistics/lectures/10lect05.html
http://www.public.asu.edu/~gelderen/314text/chap2.htm#C
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conjunctions.htm#that
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/062.html


--lotus
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