Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[hiromi525]

Which sentence does sound stronger?

1 The door won't open.
2 The door wouldn't open.

1 My son won't listen to me.
2 My son wouldn't listen to me.

[Philo Kevetch]

Hello Hiromi -

will not (won't) and would not (wouldn't) are equally 'strong'

the are simply different tenses.

It can be a little difficult getting started in your study of English...

hang in there - Philo

btw - 'sounds' (not - 'does sound')

[Lorikeet]

[rice07]

Sorry to butt in!

Hi Lorikeet

After finishing reading your reply to Hiromi525's question, I personally think , if I amn't mistaken, what you wrote seems to imply that won't is a little bit stronger than wouldn't in that case. Could you develope this point further for Hiromi525 and me? Thanks!

[lotus]

Hi,

Here's my 2 cents:

"Will not" has more to do with [ability or] intent, whereas "would not" has more to do with a supposition.

Here's a phrase I often use to distinquish the two:

I would if I could, but I can't so I won't.

If you understand this phrase, you will understand the difference between would and will, and wouldn't and won't (will not).

To be more technical, would and will are modals which express different moods (which is related to conditionals and the subjunctive). The difference is subtle, but distinquishing enough such that a native speaker would rarely mix up the two.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/auxiliary.htm



--lotus
_________________
War does not make one great --Yoda

[rice07]

Hi Lotus

I guess I've seen your point right, which is,in general, correspondent with my original concept over that point for 'will' and 'would'.

'Would' is used as a softer, less definite form of will, or in some cases as the past of will.

'Would' can also express insistence(rather rare, and with a strong stress on the word 'would').

Much obliged!

Have a nice day!

[Philo Kevetch]

It seems the use of 'will' in the original example is intended to express 'capability' (ie. - a square peg will not fit in a round hole).

There are more than 2 dozen entries and a plethora of examples of usage under 'will' in my dictionary.

English... such an interesting language. Philo

[lotus]

You're right Philo,

In 1-1, it is the door's inability to open.

In 1-2, it is the son's unwillingness to listen (willful intent to not listen).


--lotus
_________________
War does not make one great --Yoda

[Philo Kevetch]

Hello Lotus -

Always a pleasure.

The original post was edited after my initial response and did not include the 2nd example regarging the sons' unwillilgness to answer. Thanks for the 'follow-up'. Philo

[hiromi525]

Hello everyone

[Philo Kevetch]

Hello again -

Seems you've picked a 'tough nut to crack' here...

It might be a good idea to ask the teacher for clear/simple examples using the 'modal/auxiliay' form of 'will/would' to help you understand your original question regarding 'stronger'.

The examples, as you have presented them here, are too easily understood as simply indicating present/past tenses.

Were you to add 'context' to example #2 :

- As much as my son needs some advice, it's no use trying to help him.

1- He won't listen to me.

2- He wouldn't listen listen to me.

1 is 'stronger' than 2.

But...

1- When I tell my son to do something, he won't listen to me.

2- When I told my son to do something, he wouldn't listen to me.

1 is not 'stronger' than 2; they are simply different tenses.

Philo

[hiromi525]

Thank you very much Philo

[Philo Kevetch]

edit - typo -'adice' = 'advice'

Dear Hiromi -

It seems counterproductive to become bogged down on such a small point at this stage in your study of English.

Please consider the advice given above and repeated here...

rather than continue to 'spin your wheels' looking for an answer to your question regarding 'stronger' using the examples offered in your original post,

ask your teacher to begin with examples using 'modals'.

Once you have understood the relative nuance of 'stronger' in the use of modals, you can then investigate the dozens of additional uses of 'will/would'.

Philo

btw- 'going to'...not - 'gonna'; show this 'to' my teacher; 'grammar'

[hiromi525]

Hello Philo
I hope you are doing well.
Thank you very much for your advice and correcting my grammer mistakes.
I am going to understood the relative nuance of stronger in the use of modals

[rice07]

Hi Hiromi525

If you want to learn , in detail, those uses for 'will' and 'would', Practical English Usage is too useful a reference book to miss. In Taiwan, this book is available at Caves Books(敦煌 書局). I guess you can also find it at a bookstore having tended to focus on selling English books in Japan. Go have a look at it( see entries 217, 629, and 633-- the third edition for English version), perhaps you'll find something you've been meaning to know. Good luck!

BTW, in my first thought, I intented to quote those parts related to your question from this book, but I'm defeated by not only is it a lot to type, I'm also very bad at typing. Sorry! I cannot do to help.