Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Seiichi MYOGA]

Suppose your income were exactly $50,000 a year.
Then which category do you think you fall into?

(1) Category A: Income less than $50,000 a year
Clinton voters (51%) vs Obama voters (37%)
Category B: Income more than $50,000 a year
Clinton voters (45%) vs Obama voters (49%)

(1) is based on Time April 21, 2008.

Other variables include Sex (Men or Women); Age (18 to 34, 35 to 54, or 55 and older); Race (White, Black, or Other).
The categories given for each variable cover all the voters polled.

In light of this, you should fall either into Category A or into Category B.

I think Time's writer would say that you are a member of Category A, meaning he or she used the "less than $50,000 a year" to mean "$50,000 a year OR less."
What do you think?

Thank you in advance
Seiichi MYOGA

Sometimes you may find that when categories are defined on a scale as in (2), category X, for example, is represented as "more than Nx and fewer than Ny." In this case, "fewer than Ny" is supposed to mean "Ny or fewer."
(2)
1. N1...N2
2. N2...N3
.......
X. Nx...Ny
Y. Ny...Nz
(where any of 1 to Y means a category and any of N1 to Nz, a value on a scale.)

I'm not sure how (un)common this use is.

[Philo Kevetch]

Hello Seiichi Myoga -

Neither this nor your previous example ('fewer than') is representative of 'scientific data' and it would seem best to read them accepting 'fewer'/'less' as the 'base line'.

- fewer than 21 drinks a week = moderate drinker
- more than 21 drinks a week = 21 or more = heavy drinker

afterall.. What kind of drink? One person has a small glass of wine with dinner and another has half a tumbler of Scotch whisky...

Polls usually have a 4% margin of error (plus or minus)..so

- Income less than $50K per year = Category A

- Income of more than $50K = $50K or more = Category B

"What do you think?" (You asked)

One person makes $49,999.99 per year and another makes $50,000.01

for these types of inexact examples, 'split the difference' instead of 'hairs'

afterall..fewer than 21/more than 21 = 6 of one/half a dozen of the other.

Philo

[Seiichi MYOGA]

Dear Philo,

Thank you again for your help and comments.

I did some further research.

I couldn't gain a direct access to the source of American Society of Hypertension but found something closest to it: Two hundred healthy men and women took part (100 men and 100 women) with a mean age of 46 years. Subjects were categorized as non drinkers, moderate drinkers (males <21 unit per week; females <14 units per week) and heavy drinkers (males >21 unit per week; females >14 units per week). http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/540764/

After all, the researchers excluded someone who drinks 21 units each week. In light of this, I think exactly what is confusing or misleading is the phrase "three categories."

Probably, the study reported by Reuters (which you can also read in Healthday News) was intended to deny a previous report:This was the allegation that first appeared in the Times that the original 'safe drinking' limits of a maximum of 21 units of alcohol per week for men and 14 for women, dating from 1987,"had no firm scientific basis whatsoever". http://www.ias.org.uk/resources/publications/alcoholalert/alert200801/al200801_p4.html

It might help you to remind yourself that the lead researcher named Dr. Azra Mahmud works in St. James Hospital in Dublin.

Of course, the question remains why they left out men who had exactly 21 drinks every week. Perhaps there were no such participants there.

So said, there are some cases where you come across the seemingly "careless" or "poor" use of "more than" and "less/fewer than."

(3) 16. Please Enter Your Income Level:
Less than $30,000
More than $30,000 less than $50,000
More than $50,000 less than $80,000
Over $80,000 (City of Franklin, TN Police Department)
(4) How far do you travel to attend CrossPoint?
Less than 1 mile.
More than 1 mile and less than 3 miles.
More than 3 miles and less than 5 miles.
More than 5 miles and less than 10 miles.
More than 10 miles.
I "attend" online only and don't travel. (CrossPoint Fellowship Church)
(5) Visibility options used in five day forecast
Visibilities can be any of the following:
Less than 1000M - Very Poor
Less than 4000M but more than 1000M - Poor
Less than 10KM but more than 4000M - Moderate
Less than 20KM but more than 10KM - Good
Less than 40KM but more than 20KM - Very Good
Greater than or equal to 40KM - Excellent (BBC)

Seiichi MYOGA