Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[KejciorF]

Hi,

could u please explain tell me which form is correct and why?

I bought a new computer because I NEEDED/HAD NEEDED one.

TIA,

Kate.

[dragn]

Hi,

Basically, we use the simple past tense for something you did, something that happened or something that was true at some point in the past. So, if you say I bought a new computer because I needed one, all we know is simply that at some point in the past you purchased a new computer, and the reason is because you needed a new one. Just that and nothing more. I'm guessing that you don't have too much trouble with that part.

In my experience, students who have trouble with the past perfect often don't quite have a clear understanding of the present perfect. Let's take a look at this with the example in question.

If you say I need a new computer, that's simple present tense, and it simply describes what is true now. However, in the present perfect we might have something like this:

I have needed a new computer for a month.

That is not just something that is true now; it started being true a month ago and continues to be true up to now. Depending on the context, it's possible that this will continue to be true beyond the moment of speaking, or maybe it is no longer true because we just bought a new computer. The point is that we are using the present perfect to describe something that started happening or started to be true at some point in the past and continues to happen or to be true up to the present.

The past perfect works the same way, only instead of talking about something that continued to happen or to be true up to now, it continued to happen or to be true up to some point in the past.

In other words, in the present perfect the reference point of time is now; in the past perfect the reference point of time is in the past.

So the truth is that both of your sentences are 100 percent correct; the question is which one do you need to express what you want to say? The most common problem I see in regard to the past perfect is students using it when they have no need for it.

So, do we want to emphasize that you needed a new computer for a period of time that started in the past, and continued up to the time you bought a new one? With no other context, I see no need for the past perfect here. You would only need the past perfect if, for example, you wanted to emphasize that you had started needing a new computer some length of time before you got around to buying one. For example:

I bought a new computer because I had needed one since my old one broke down last month.

Now we are emphasizing that the need for a new computer started when your old one broke down, and continued up to the time you bought a new one (a time in the past). Without that extra context, there's no need for the past perfect.

Hope this helps.

dragn

[dragn]

Just to be clear: when I said that both of your sentences were 100 percent correct, they are in the sense that neither actually violates any grammar rules. However, the sentence I bought a new computer because I had needed one does sound a little odd with no context that makes the need for the past perfect apparent. We are forced to assume such context exists somewhere else in the conversation.

dragn

[KejciorF]

Hi, thanks for such a detailed reply. I am a teacher of English, a non-native one, and I gave a student of mine exercises where he had to put past simple or past perfect into gaps in sentences. In the sentence that I mention in my previous post, he circled HAD NEEDED, and it sounded strange to me too.

And I was just wondering how to explain to him why past simple is better. I believe he will argue that the need for the new computer arose before the purchase - that's why we need past perfect here.

What u think about that?

TIA,

Kate.

[dragn]

Hi Kate,

I understand why your student may argue that point...it makes perfect sense, of course. The need for the new computer certainly did arise before the purchase of a new one. It must have, but that's not the point.

Try to get your student to see that even though the need for the new computer arose before the purchase, that doesn't mean we have to emphasize it or focus attention on it. If the simple past tense is used, we can still safely assume the need arose before the purchase. That's common sense--it's understood. However, the past perfect is only used if the speaker has a special reason to mention this period of time that preceded the purchase. If no such reason exists, the past perfect is not used.

I know what your student is thinking. He thinks past perfect is needed simply because that period of needing a new computer existed for a period of time before the purchase. Indeed it did. There's no question about that. But here's what I would ask your student:

Yes, in the sentence "I bought a new computer because I had needed one" the need for a new computer certainly existed before the purchase...now, point to the part of the sentence that makes the reader understand that it was necessary to emphasize that fact.

I would let the student struggle with that for a couple of seconds, and then gently point out that there is none...and that's why the past perfect sounds odd, is unnecessary, and should not be used in place of the simple past here.

This can be the hard part of teaching grammar. Mastering the mechanics is the easy part. The hard part is conveying to students a sense of when, and just as importantly, when not to use a certain verb tense or grammatical construction.

dragn

[2006]

[rice07]

Hi

Sorry to butt in.

I'd like to add something cited from a book:

The basic meaning of the past perfect is ' earlier past '. A common use to ' go back ' for a moment when we are already talking about the past, to make it clear that something had already happened at the time we are talking about. And the above viewpoint, I think Dragn has already made it very clear in the thread.