Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[s_sirotori_m]

Hello,

I can�t understand the sentence underlined in the following passage. Does it mean that If they were the Sophists , they could point out...? Is this �could� subjunctive or indicative past? Please tell me.

　 "The Sophists were as a rule men who had traveled widely and seen different forms of government. Both conventions and local laws in the city-states could vary widely. This led the Sophists to raise the question of what was natural and what was socially induced. By doing this, they paved the way for social criticism in the city-state of Athens.
　 They could, for example, point out that the use of an expression like �natural modesty� is not always defensible, for if it is �natural� to be modest, it must be something you are born with, something innate. But is it really innate, or is it socially induced? To someone who has traveled the world, the answer should be simple: it is not �natural� ― or innate ― to be afraid to show yourself naked. Modesty ― or the lack of it ― is first and foremost a matter of social convention. According to the wandering Sophists, there were no absolute standards for what was right or wrong."

Thank you in advance

[dragn]

Hi,

There actually are native speakers of English in the world who have expert, in-depth knowledge of the subjunctive. Unfortunately, I see neither of them has attempted to answer your question.

Well, let's see. The subjunctive mood is typically used to express such things as:

� polite requests (Would you please tell me more about the subjunctive?)
� wishes (I wish I were more knowledgeable about the subjunctive.)
� the construction "act" as if + verb (That moron yammered on and on about the subjunctive as if he were a real grammar guru.)
� situations that are hypothetical or unreal (We could discuss the subjunctive over drinks at my place this evening. // I could have talked about the subjunctive all night, but my date slipped into an irreversible coma.)

...along with a number of other things, but it's the last one that is pertinent here. In the sentence "They could, for example, point out . . ." it sounds as if the writer is giving us a typical (and for all I know, real) example of the attitudes and/or actions of the Sophists. I think he's saying that's the typical sort of thinking or reasoning that they expounded. To me, it sounds a bit like this:

When Greg...er, I mean George was in college, he was pretty wild. He could stay out all night partying and still go to class the next day.

This isn't really hypothetical or unreal. It's typical of his behavior at that time...George's, that is. Even if the example is not factually true, it is intended to be representative of reality, rather than apart from or contrary to reality.

It is for this reason I really don't believe this is the subjunctive, and would be interested to hear others' take on this.

Greg