Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Diana]

It's very difficult to make any kind of comment on a website that is written in another language.

[Diana]

Well, the photo shows a soldier who looks either unhappy, frustrated, hurt, or even guilty. There could be a number of reasons for this range of emotions. Perhaps, he saw his friend or buddy died or shot during their mission. Perhaps, he was one of the soldiers who accidentally killed another American or British soldier through friendly fire and is feeling very guilty for it. Also, it could be his first time in a war and is feeling all the overwhelming and stressful effects of it.

Personally, I think he looks very hurt, guilty, and devastated over something. I think he accidentally killed another American or allied soldier by mistake, and now he has to live with that mistake for the rest of his life, despite that it really isn't his fault. In war, sometimes miscommunication and mistakes happen due to the stressful situation.

The first person who never likes war is always a soldier. They, unlike most people, know the realities of war. Every American soldier knows that it is not easy to take the life of a human being even if that human being is your enemy.

[Diana]

Hello Someone,

Pictures don't tell the whole story. You have a photo of a US soldier carrying money and that is all. I don't see the US soldier putting the money in his bag. How do I know that this US soldier kept the money to himself and not distributed to the Iraqi people? And what American soldier would even care to have an Iraqi money when everyone knows that the US dollar is worth a lot more. Every American soldier fighting in a war knows that supplies and ammunition are more valuable than worthless Iraqi money. Also, how do I know that those victims were killed by the US and not by Iraqi soldiers? I've read reports of Iraqi soldiers firing at their own people as they are trying to flee Basra. I don't know about you, but I know Saddam. He is willing to kill his own people and blame it on the Americans. Have you forgotten that he even gassed his own people using chemicals in the 1980s?

And what makes you think that it is only the victims of the 911 attacks that I care about? I have a friend who is currently fighting in the Persian Gulf War. I worry about him everyday as he is in that war zone. But I also have to support this war because a majority of the Iraqi people want it. I kniow that Bush is not there to liberate the Iraqi people, but the Iraqi people want to be free from Saddam. Bush is more concern about those chemical and biological weapons that Saddam is hiding rather than liberating the Iraqi people. Nevertheless, taking out Saddam will liberate the Iraqi people.

Have you forgotten what Saddam had done to his own people? Have you forgotten that he gassed his own people using chemicals? The Iraqis haven't forgotten, and if you look through the Internet there are many Iraqis who are living in the United States and in Europe who want Saddam out. There are many Iraqis who are supporting this US-led war. Here is one of the articles I've posted. I don't know if you've read it already.


Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 108
Location: Guam, U.S.A.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2003 11:48 am Post subject: Where are the Iraqis?


Here is an interesting article I've found. I wonder if anyone in the international community ever stop to listen to what the Iraqis themselves wanted or does the International community think they know what is best for Iraqi people? In my opinion, the unheard voices of the Iraqis are more important because that is their homeland and their people.

-------------------------------------------

Jeff Jacoby
Jeff Jacoby is a columnist for The Boston Globe.


A BOOST FOR SADDAM
Copyright Boston Globe
Feb. 20, 2003

www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/051/oped/A_boost_for_Saddam+.shtml

Something was missing from last weekend's vast wave of demonstrations against war in Iraq:

Iraqis.

Across Europe and the United States, 2 million or more protesters took to the streets to denounce the Bush administration's plans to disarm Saddam Hussein. The enormous crowds of demonstrators, news reports stressed, comprised all sorts of people -- "college students, middle-aged couples, families with small children, older people who had marched for civil rights, and groups representing labor, the environment, and religious, business, and civic organizations," as The New York Times put it.

An endless parade of speakers addressed the throngs, praising their antiwar message and denouncing George W. Bush and his allies. Among the speakers at the immense London march -- reportedly the largest in the city's history -- were the city's mayor, Ken Livingstone; the playwright Harold Pinter; Jesse Jackson; Bianca Jagger; and even a former minister in Tony Blair's Cabinet. In New York, the crowds heard from Bishop Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King III, singers Pete Seeger and Richie Havens, and Hollywood celebrities Danny Glover and Susan Sarandon.

But where were the Iraqis? Where in this great chorus of antiwar passion were the voices of those for whom Iraq is not just a cause but a homeland? More than 4 million Iraqis have fled that homeland since Saddam came to power in 1979. Tens of thousands live in the United States, hundreds of thousands in Europe. Yet virtually none took part in the weekend's demonstrations. Don't they care about Iraq?

Of course they do. That is why they stayed away.

"I am so frustrated by the appalling views of most of the British people, media, and politicians," one Iraqi expatriate, a London neurologist named B. Khalaf, writes in The Guardian. "I want to say to all these people who are against the possible war, that if you think . . you are serving the interests of Iraqi people or saving them, you are not. You are effectively saving Saddam. You are depriving the Iraqi people of probably their last real chance to get rid of him."

Another Iraqi in exile, 19-year-old Rania Kashi, penned an open letter asking where the antiwar movement was during Saddam's war against Iran in the 1980s, which caused the death of 1 million Iraqis and Iranians. Or during his attack on the people of Halabja, when thousands of Iraqi Kurds were gassed to death. Or during the 1990s, when Saddam flouted one United Nations directive after another.

"Saddam rules Iraq using fear; he regularly imprisons, executes, and tortures large numbers of people for no reason whatsoever," she wrote. "Believe me, you will be hard-pressed to find a single family in Iraq which has not had a son/father/brother killed, imprisoned, tortured, and/or 'disappeared' due to Saddam's regime. What then has been stopping you from taking to the streets to protest against such blatant crimes against humanity in the past? . . . I have attended the permanent rally against Saddam that has been held every Saturday in Trafalgar Square for the past five years. The Iraqi people have been protesting for years against the war -- the war that Saddam has waged against them. Where have you been?"

If the suffering of Iraq's people meant anything to the protesters, such cries from the heart might have prompted twinges of shame, or at least some second thoughts. But there is little evidence that the antiwar campaign cares at all about those whom Saddam has hurt. Countless demonstrators carried signs reading "Don't Attack Iraq," "Not In My Name," "War Doesn't Fight Terror," and "No Blood For Oil." Others toted posters defaming Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair -- portraying them with swastikas or Hitler moustaches, for example. For those who failed to grasp the point, a large sign in Rome spelled it out: "Bush is the new Hitler."

But nowhere to be seen were signs proclaiming "Against war AND against Saddam" or "Saddam must disarm" or "Justice for Saddam's victims." There were no banners proclaiming Saddam the new Hitler. None of the speakers were Iraqi Kurds or Shi'ites or dissidents. None were survivors of Saddam's torture chambers or poison gas attacks.

It goes without saying that many of those in the crowds were well-meaning people who want only to prevent war. Undoubtedly they would bristle at being labeled pro-Saddam. But whatever might be in their hearts, they can be judged only by their actions -- and by their actions last weekend they declared themselves pro-Saddam.

As they poured into the streets, as they clamored for peace at any price, as they denounced those who oppose the tyrant of Baghdad, as they counseled passivity in the face of his crimes, they strengthened one of the world's most vicious despots and complicated the task of those trying to bring him down. The demonstrations were a powerful boost for Saddam and a stinging betrayal of Iraq's afflicted people. That is why they were broadcast live on Iraqi television. And why millions of free Iraqis stayed away.

[Diana]

Here is another article about how some Iraqis feel about the war in their country, Someone. Why is it so easy for you to remember that Americans would be killing innocent people in Iraq during this war? Where were you when Saddam was killing the Iraqis? Did you protest against Saddam when he was killing his own people?
--------------------------------------------
Thursday, February 06, 2003
Life in Iraq has been a prison for its citizens, says one of the refugees
Iraqis living in Roanoke share experiences of homeland

A. Alrafi said he is not convinced by rallies that show Iraqi people supporting Saddam. "You see the people on TV?" he asked. "They have no choice to say no."

By JEN McCAFFERY
THE ROANOKE TIMES

Iraq is a place where the walls have ears. It is a place where, when a young girl asks her mother who God is, her mother will tell her " Saddam Hussein." The mother knows that her little girl might get asked at school what her family thinks of Saddam Hussein, and in her innocence, she might give a wrong answer.

It is a place where secret police will shoot and kill a man, then charge his family for the bullet.

And it is a place where some citizens would welcome a U.S. war on their own country because even the prospect of invasion is better than living any longer under Saddam's rule.

These are the recollections of three Iraqi refugees living in Roanoke.

Their stories don't come easily, and they asked not to be photographed or to be fully identified.

Even from across the globe, they fear Saddam and for their families who remain in Iraq. They grew up in a land where the eyes of the leader are on everyone. Literally, in the pictures of the Iraqi leader that must be hung in people's homes. And figuratively, through his secret police, who rape the wives and daughters of prisoners to coerce confessions and who torture and kill perceived enemies of the state.

"We wish and we hope for President Bush to kill him or take him off," one of the refugees, A. Aljizani, said of Saddam. "We wait. Day by day. Minute by minute."

About 1 million Iraqis have been killed through wars and terrorism in Iraq, a country with 22 million people, the New York Times has reported.

Aljizani, A. Alrafi and Saadi Al-Asadi, who each escaped from Iraq during the Gulf War, now live in the 2600 block of Westover Avenue, with a small community of about 30 Iraqi exiles. About 150 Iraqi natives live in Roanoke and Roanoke County, according to census figures.

"If the government of the United States needs us to fight Saddam Hussein, myself, I am ready," Alrafi, 30, said.

"Me too," Al-Asadi, 44, echoed.

Their thoughts remain with their families back in Iraq. All three men grew up in large families in southern Iraq, where the majority of the population are Shiite Muslims.

Saddam, who is a Sunni Muslim, does not like the Shiites, said Aljizani, 30. Iraq's invasion of Iran in 1980 was partially motivated by Saddam's motivation to curtail the influence of Iranian Shiite leaders in southern Iraq. Al-Asadi lost two of his brothers in the war against Iran, he said. Another brother was later killed by Saddam's secret police, he said.

Life in Iraq has been a prison for its citizens, Al-Asadi said. The government will not issue passports to people who want to leave.

In 1990, when Iraq invaded Kuwait and news of a potential offensive by the United States reached Iraqi citizens, Aljizani said people were waiting for the invasion.

When his family heard that the United States had launched airstrikes in 1991, they said to each other, "Congratulations, we're going to live a new life," Aljizani said. "It was like someone married. We celebrated."

All three men, who did not know one another until they came to Roanoke, had heard that they could escape Iraq if they reached the U.S. Army, which by then had troops on the ground.

Neither Al-Asadi nor Aljizani told their families they were leaving. They realized that anything their families knew about their defections could only pose a danger to their lives. Alrafi hid a note in his bedroom, telling his family he was going to join the U.S. Army. They joined the thousands of men, women and children who followed the rumor that they would be saved by American forces in southern Iraq. Many didn't make it.
All three men eventually made it to U.S. forces in the south. They were transferred along with thousands of other refugees to a camp in Saudi Arabia. All three remained in the camp until they got clearance after several years to come to the United States as political refugees.

Al-Asadi first went to Ohio. Aljizani went to Maryland and Alrafi went to Florida. Once they arrived in the United States, all three contacted their families in Iraq for the first time in more than five years. Aljizani's mother could not stop crying when she heard from her son. "My mom think I went into the Army for Saddam Hussein," Aljizani said. Each man said the first time they called home to Iraq they each were on the phone for two or three hours. Their phone bills totaled between $700 and $800 because of the calls.

Some things had changed for their loved ones; others hadn't. Aljizani found out his brother had married and had children since he had left. He also found out his father had died. Aljizani cried when he heard that his father had spoken of him every day, and of how his father said he wanted to hear his son's voice one more time before he died.

By 1999, all three men had come to Roanoke, on the advice of friends. Aljizani and Alrafi are both truck drivers; Al-Asadi works at the cosmetics manufacturer Elizabeth Arden in Roanoke. Now, they talk to their families every few months, they said. All three men were happy to hear last year that President Bush had targeted Saddam Hussein once again. Alrafi is outraged to see Saddam's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majeed, acting as a diplomat on television. Al-Majeed directed the release of poison gas on the Kurds in northern Iraq in 1988. As many as 200,000 people were killed during that operation, Reuters has reported.

Alrafi said he is not convinced by the rallies on TV that show the Iraqi people supporting Saddam. "You see the people on TV?" Alrafi asked. "They have no choice to say no."

Alrafi's family is waiting for the invasion, just like they did in 1991, Alrafi said. He can't talk freely with his family, but an unspoken code has developed, he said.

[Diana]

Hello Someone,
Here is another article about how the Iraqis feel about the US-led war in their own country. This time the interviews are coming from the Iraqis in Nassiriya in Iraq. As you can see, they don't like Saddam and they don't care who takes him out as long as they do take him out.

You can protest the US-led war, but the Iraqis will not protest this war because what they really want is to take out Saddam, and they don't care who takes him out as long as he is taken out. And because the Iraqi people support this war to take out Saddam, I will stand beside the Iraqi people and also support this war. It is what they want, and they have more say in their country than anyone else. I am certainly not going to support Saddam and condemn the Iraqi people to more suffering under his regime.

And when Saddam is ousted from his throne, I want the Americans out of Iraq and the United Nations in.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
World - Reuters

Nassiriya Citizens Afraid to Rise Against Saddam
1 hour, 50 minutes ago Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Adrian Croft

NASSIRIYA, Iraq (Reuters) - Iraqis from the southern city of Nassiriya say most of the town's citizens oppose President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) but bad memories of a suppressed 1991 revolt keeps them from rising up against Saddam this time.

A number of Iraqis from the Nassiriya area, interviewed at random by a road on the outskirts of the city on Tuesday, said only a small number of Fedayeen militia and Baath Party activists continued to put up sporadic resistance to U.S. forces who have pummelled targets in the city for the past six days.

"It's almost calm. Only 30 or 40 Baath Party activists are there," Hussein Irani said, speaking through an interpreter. The Iraqi army withdrew from the city or deserted within four or five hours of the start of fighting, he said.

According to the 21-year-old unemployed man, most residents of Nassiriya wanted to get rid of Saddam's government.

"They only want to get rid of the regime, no matter who gets rid of it -- whether America, Britain, anybody. But most of them cannot believe America will continue doing that."

Asked if there could be a popular uprising against Saddam in the city, Irani's friend, who asked to remain anonymous, said: "Not again after 1991. We feel very weak."

Shia residents of southern Iraq (news - web sites) have bad memories of 1991 when U.S.-led forces, flush with triumph after expelling Saddam's invasion force from Kuwait, did not intervene to support their rebellion against Saddam's government which was subsequently crushed.

Local people's fear over the outcome of the current war is shown by the reluctance of most to give their full names or be filmed by television cameras.

"COWARDS"

The unidentified young man said the pro-Saddam Fedayeen engaged in a guerrilla struggle against U.S. forces in the city were "cowards."

"They just fire two bullets in the air and (take refuge in) one of the houses where there's a family. When coalition forces come in, they just blow up that house or bomb that house because they say resistance is coming out of it," he said.

Another man, who gave only his first name, Ahmed, said the only fighters in the city were Fedayeen and Baath Party activists.

"These Fedayeen are the lowest people from the slums, from the bottom of society. They come and fight but the people originally from Nassiriya are very happy to see that regime go and the sooner the better," he said.

Ahmed, a driver, said if they received assurances of American determination to oust Saddam "they will go and fight these people, get them out of the city."

An elderly man, who refused to give his name but spoke some English, said Nassiriya residents did not want to be under the control of either Saddam or of the Americans. "We want a president coming for us from the Shia people," he said.

The man, who was in search of petrol, said the situation was very bad. "We don't have fuel, food or water," he said.

[Diana]

Oh dear.....it looks like Someone's posts have all been deleted. At any rate, I have finally found what the US and Coalition forces have done with all that Iraqi money that the soldier was carrying. Someone, if you read the article below, it tells you that the soldiers gave all the money to the Iraqi people. They did NOT keep any of it for themselves.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Call to prayer revived by troops

By Sarah Oliver
In southern Iraq


It is a sound which has echoed down the centuries but which has not been heard here for 15 years - the wailing call to prayer. On Friday however, at 0430 (0130 GMT), in the minutes before the desert dawn, the voice of the Imam rang out. What Saddam's Baath party had forbidden, the British Army had restored. The townspeople, whose mosque was destroyed years ago, prayed in the privacy of their own homes. Friday prayer is an important occasion for Muslims. But instead of their worship being a secret and dangerous thing, it was freely performed with new joy.

The 1st Battalion Royal Irish secured a public address system for the Imam and men from their attached Royal, Electrical and Mechanical Engineers installed it on Thursday night in time for Friday prayers.

'Top priority'

By next Friday, commanding officer Lt Colonel Tim Collins hopes to have a prayer tent in place so the community can gather for the traditional midday address. He said: "Banning prayer and denying Muslim people a mosque is simply one more manifestation of the Baath party's evil regime. "From the moment we began our hearts and minds campaign here its restoration was a top priority. "From now they will have their call to prayer five times a day - it will no longer be conducted behind closed doors, it will be done openly, as it should be." Although the Imam was permitted to offer pastoral care, he was not allowed to fulfil his role as their religious leader, leaving the population of 4,000 struggling with the secular ideals of Baath.

Significant sign

On Friday, as dozens of townspeople thronged the alleyway at the back of his shabby terraced home, it was clear they had not forgotten their God. The return of the call to prayer is perhaps the most significant sign yet that the shanty communities inhabiting the wealthy oilfields of southern Iraq are recovering their equilibrium under occupation by the British Army.

Another is the re-opening of the barber's shop where many officers from the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment are paying 250 dinars (10p) for a trim, which is finished with a cut-throat razor.

Coalition troops have been involved in monitoring prayer occasions

The primary and secondary schools with 40 and 20 pupils apiece, have also opened their doors.

They are flying the Iraqi flag as a symbol of national identity but all pro-Saddam slogans have been painted out by local townspeople and Baath propaganda stripped from the classrooms.

Flatbreads being baked

A new football pitch, volleyball court and schoolyard are to be built for the children by the 1st Royal Irish.

Although none of the food shops has reopened - the traders are trapped in the southern city of Basra - nomadic tomato and onion sellers have returned to the marketplace and flatbreads are being baked.

British troops are banned from spending pounds sterling or US dollars as commanders are determined the local economy should not be undermined by hard currency trading. We can't play god and enforce our own societal values on people, we need to enable them.

Major Andrew Cullen

They have bankrolled the town's first ever bank with �1,000 worth of dinars confiscated from the Baath Party. It is being used to pay the wages of municipal employees such as teachers and security staff and fund the town clinic which has been re-opened by a fourth year medical student after the doctor fled in the face of the Allied advance.

Next the Army will attempt to conduct a census on the main community which is dominated by oil industry workers, and its attached, much poorer and more rural village where railway workers - nicknamed the Ali Babars by townspeople - live.

'Enabling'

Law and order has been restored by the arrival of British Military Police and a regional government created by the formation of a Joint Civil-Military Commission, headed by Royal Irish second in command Major Andrew Cullen. He said: "The influence of Baath was so great that it had filtered down to the lowest level of society and since we have destroyed Baath we must now help them build a new framework. "We can't play god and enforce our own societal values on people, we need to enable them." As well as helping with water and power, attached engineers are assisting with carpentry or plumbing. They hope that soon residents will be self-sufficient. The ambition of the townspeople and the Royal Irish is to see the oilfields re-opened and jobs restored. With the oil will come wealth and with the wealth will come security and stability. "We are here to see that happens," said Major Cullen.


This is pooled copy from Sarah Oliver of the Mail On Sunday, with the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment in southern Iraq.