Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[BMO]

Prior to coming to Virginia, Greiner was the Director of Membership Programs for the Iowa Soybean Assoication in West Des Moines, Iowa, and also held positions with ....


Is article the required?

[bud]

I'm not positive, BMO, but I think it is optional. It'd be like saying George Bush is president of the United States (although so far he has not been elected to that position). You could also say George Bush is the president of the United States (although even then he was never elected).

I'm guessing, but I think the difference (grammatically speaking) might be that in the first way (without "the"), we are referring to his title (President, Director, etc.). In the second, we are referring to his job. Practicallly speaking, I don't think it would make much difference which way you say it - with or without "the."

As another example, we might sat Tom is a carpenter (using the article "a") on that project. We wouldn't say Tom is carpenter on that project. But if Tom happened to have a title, then we could say Tom is Head Carpenter on that project or Tom is the head carpenter...

Again, I'm guessing on this but it seem to fit. Also, sorry for the political commentary, but I couldn't resist! Nice question, BMO!

[BMO]

If it is a title, then we don't need THE, right? I think it is a title here. Thanks.

[bud]

Correct!.. (At least I'm pretty sure that it is.)

[advoca]

Prior to coming to Virginia, Greiner was the Director of Membership Programs for the Iowa Soybean Assoication in West Des Moines, Iowa, and also held positions with ....

Is article the required?
When you are talking about jobs or positions you can use the article or not as you please. For example:

George W Bush is the president of the USA.
George W Bush is president of the USA.

Elizabeth is the queen of England.
Elizabeth is queen of England

Bill is the Chairman of the Board.
Bill is Chairman of the Board.

Tom Smith was the captain of the ship.
Tom Smith was captain of the ship.

Henry Jones will be appointed the headmaster.
Henry Jones will be appointed headmaster.

[BMO]

Thanks. It is different from Bud's.

[bud]

Suppose my friend's job is in nursing, Advoca. Are you saying that I can say Anne is nurse (without an article) at Metropolitan Medical Center? Of course not. There are some intricacies here that we are both missing. I am starting to wonder if the issue is whether or not the position in question is unique. That might be the key that makes the article optional. (Note that in all of your examples, the job is filled by only one person.)

For example, if Tony is a senior architect at a large frim with many other senior architects, we would not say that Tony is senior architect (no article) at his firm. Wouldn't that imply that he was unique? But if he worked at a small firm where he was the only one in the senior position, we then could say that Tony is senior architect at his firm.

Any thoughts or further refinements?

[obelix]

Bud, if you said, "Tony is senior architect at Smith and Smith", I would assume he is THE most senior architect of all the achitects that worked there.

If you said he was "a senior architect", I would assume he was one of several senior architects at his company. I think it's only the definite article you can leave out, and so probably it can only be done when someone is unique, as you suggest.

As far as titles go, you can say, George Bush is President of the U.S.A.. There's only one - it's Dubya - but would you say Washington was "First President of the U.S.A.", or" THE first President of the U.S.A.",

[bud]

Oh wonderful, Obelix, just throw another monkey wrench into the mix! Lol

I would say it with the article. I am not positive that saying it without the article is wrong, but it does sound strange.

Great question! Maybe it's just that there is no clear rule on this issue.

[obelix]

This forum makes you realize how hard it must be for the students to catch all the nuances and it has opened my eyes to many of them myself.

[bud]

I totally agree and I, too, have learned a lot by hanging out in here. English must be maddening to learn.