New Thread - Grim realities of teaching & games

<b> Forum for discussing activities and games that work well in the classroom </b>

Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2

sita
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:59 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by sita » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:06 pm

Hi!

It is really interesting to discuss and to improve one's work.

I never really thought teachers actually played mindless games to "kill time" :evil: Point taken!
However one colleague of mine constantly watched videos with her courses and they complained :D

I lend all my videos to students if they wish...once a term we watch a video together. I prepare a lot of stuff for them though and we use it before and after watching the video.


I have always used newspaper articles in class. My students like this very much.

Best wishes
Siân

LarryLatham
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

Post by LarryLatham » Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:35 pm

I have always used newspaper articles in class. My students like this very much.
Good for you, Sian. 8) No doubt the language found there is better than what is usually found in textbooks.

May I suggest you consider also using magazine articles (from both popular magazines and technical ones), business reports, random pages from novels, print advertisements, and any other authentic written materials you can find. The register is different for all of these...the language is different. One of the things you can discuss with your students is exactly the differences they can detect between, say, newspaper English and something from a dialog in a novel. :) Why would you want to do this? It's all part of the attempt to raise your students' level of awareness of English.

Larry Latham

mwert
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:54 am
Location: Tel Aviv,Israel

Post by mwert » Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:03 am

I agree with you Larry (again...)
Not only because authentic material raises the students' level of awareness of the language but also for the simple fact that I find it interesting...
Of course there is a lot of stuff that might interest my students and bore me BUT I found out that material that I don't find stimulating n interesting affects my teaching ...so in the end, it's better for them .....

LarryLatham
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

Post by LarryLatham » Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:54 pm

An excellent point, Michelle! :D A bored teacher just about guarantees bored students, no matter what the subject or the learning material being used. :!: Can anyone imagine a bored teacher with a room full of enraptured students???

Conversely, a passionate teacher goes a long ways towards perking up the students too. A personal story: A long time ago when I was an undergrad studying engineering (of all things) at Ohio State University, I took a required class called "Introduction to Mechanical Engineering." When the prof first entered the classroom he was the squarest looking man I had ever seen. Thick eyeglasses in black horned rims, a chalk-covered dark gray suit (which he wore every single day the class met, by the way). A worn tie that didn't go with the suit. White socks and ancient oxford style shoes. I (and all the rest of the class) figured this was going to be a dreadful course. It was especially bad because this class was an overflow class and met only once a week on Saturday for three hours--9-12. But it didn't turn out like that. That professor was so excited by mechanical engineering that he fairly sparkled with energy and enthusiasm. His classes were wonderful, exciting. He gave lots of homework (a paper due every week), and gave difficult, but fascinating exams. It was one of the hardest classes I took at university, but hands down the most interesting. I'd take it again in a heartbeat, and so, I would guess, would any of my classmates there. (Oh, and by the way, we didn't play any games! :wink: )

I want to be a teacher like that. Alas, I'm afraid I don't have his talent, but I do keep trying.

Larry Latham

neil
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:54 am

Post by neil » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:48 am

I just want to say that your anecdote (Larry) raises the point that lessons which are not challenging are also guaranteed to be boring. It's human nature to want to show others how clever you are, and if you don't give students the chance to do so (ie if you make things too easy for fear of hurting the feelings of less able students) then you're in trouble. Sometimes I like to throw an impossible-to-answer question or some piece of nonsense into a lesson, just for the pleasure of seeing everyone scratching their heads and asking each other, "What the hell...?" :?

LarryLatham
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

Post by LarryLatham » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:56 am

...lessons which are not challenging are also guaranteed to be boring. It's human nature to want to show others how clever you are, and if you don't give students the chance to do so (ie if you make things too easy for fear of hurting the feelings of less able students) then you're in trouble....
Neil,

I couldn't agree with you more. :D

Larry Latham

strider
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:52 am
Location: France

Post by strider » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:15 am

Neil and Larry,

I agree too!

I learnt a lot from a teacher called Jim. He would pose an innocent question to his students like 'What did you do last night?' After all the usual answers, someone would pose the question back at him. He always came back with something really hard to believe like 'I went to Brazil' or, 'I met the Prime Minister'. The discussion would inevitably follow, along with more questions and expressions of disbelief - an amazing amount of new words, phrases and constructions would be used by the group as they tried to work out if he was being serious or not!

And they were certainly not bored - they were trying to decide if their teacher was crazy or not !

mwert
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:54 am
Location: Tel Aviv,Israel

Post by mwert » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:23 pm

That's exactly the point i.e. to make a lesson interesting and stimulating.The question that is left then is whether we can achieve it only with games ....
Well,I certainly go with Larry,Neil and Strider in this matter....

staypuffinpc
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:09 pm

changing face of games and electronic forums

Post by staypuffinpc » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:44 pm

Hi all. Let me introduce myself (perhaps to my discredit) quickly. I'm a 25 year old grad student starting my PhD in Instructional Technology. This means I basically have nil experience when compared with all you old pros and, since I'm at the beginning of my program, will likely never get any real experience (because we all know the truth of that dog character's line in the Treasure Planet cartoon, "I'm not a doctor. Well, I have a doctorate, but you can't do anything with that. You just sit at a desk and are useless!"). However, over the course of the past 6 years, I have lived in Brazil and Mexico and taught English for about half of that and married a Chilean I met here in the U.S.
With that said, let me throw a few things into this wonderfully interesting debate (which has sidetracked me from doing a teacher-training course for the past hour. My, how we SLA teachers are long-winded!) Take the following for what you will.
First: Way back when, Larry said:
what we really need to do in our classrooms is get students to think about English. This means they have to ponder, contemplate, mull over, chew on, reflect deeply, speculate. It's a personal activity. Errors are useful here. Games, while they may be fun, do not generally provide the proper atmosphere for that. Not that there is no place for fun in the process, as long as there is genuine introspection about English. There needs to be a sense of discovery, of progress. Endless repetition is of questionable value. Getting our students to think, at least much of the time, would surely be better. The question is, how do we do that?
I have one suggestion of how you could do that (I know there are many). Have you tried using online forums to augment your students' experience? One very good and free one for teachers is NiceNet.org. It was made for the express purpose of allowing teachers to create discussions for each of their classes and, as such, has no ads and is free. One way to use this to "get students to think about English" is to perhaps align it with a course-long theme. Say, perhaps, your students are studying about a certain author, genre, or country. Maybe they're going to travel to that country at the end of the year. You could use the forum to generate out-of-class discussion. Students could be split into groups and communicate their findings this way. Students could research which cities they want to visit on their trip to their desired country and debate it over the forum. This, of course, should be accompanied and integrated in class. This is just one example, but you all can see for yourselves the efficiency of online forums in generating discussion, and therefore introspection, on even a single topic. This could really get students thinking in the target language and not just about it.
If any of you have tried this, I'd be really interested in your discoveries (both good and bad). I challenge those of you who haven't to give it a go. It's a great way to generate discussion both in and out of class.

Second: One of my interests in Instructional Technology is game theory. I agree with the concensus opinion of this forum that games can be great if carefully selected and used. One thing Larry stated that he didn't like about games (before his inner reflection) was that there's typically no room for errors, which, I agree, are necessary in SLA. I participated in an online scholarly debate just last week that discussed games in ed. and one very interesting point was the nature of games (video) nowadays as opposed to those 30 years ago. The winners of video games used to be whoever was bigger, faster, stronger. Now, though, games reward all sorts of different behavior and non-linear thinking such as searching every nook and cranny, winning a war without killing anybody, taking the long way around, and everyone's personal favorite, breaking the rules (which gets you into all sorts of secret worlds and powers, interestingly enough). Granted, most ESL classroom games I've seen take more of the traditional approach of bigger, faster, stronger. The question I submit is, what if the game takes a more modern appraoch such as the one described above? Is that appropriate for SLA classrooms? If so, how and is it worth the time it takes to make it really effective?

Without anwering my own question, I would say the debate over games is somewhat semantic. I think what many (at least on this forum) are aiming for, is the intrinsic motivation attached to games. Now, whether a gaming approach stimulates deep thought is left to be seen and needs a lot more studying.

So, who's game (no pun intended)? I know I'm a rookie so help me out.

LarryLatham
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

Post by LarryLatham » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:14 am

Hello Staypuffinpc, and welcome to our little party!

You don't sound like a rookie to me. You've been at the front of a classroom for three years and have international experience. I suspect also, that your wife provides you with lots of chances to reflect on some of the realities of SLA, not to mention your own realities (I assume you speak at least some Spanish and/or Portuguese, and may even be fluent). That makes you a veteran in my book, and to top it off, you're even crazy enough to study it in grad school!
Have you tried using online forums to augment your students' experience? One very good and free one for teachers is NiceNet.org.
I like the idea. Given the right conditions (of students having computers and network access and some typing ability and some threshold level of expertise with English) it could generate some discussion between them. The only niggle I might have is that it isn't spoken. But written discussion could surely be of value too. It's at least worth a try.
The question I submit is, what if [a] game takes a more modern appraoch such as the one described above? Is that appropriate for SLA classrooms? If so, how and is it worth the time it takes to make it really effective? ...Now, whether a gaming approach stimulates deep thought is left to be seen and needs a lot more studying.
It is indeed left to be seen whether any gaming approach stimulates the kind of student reflection that seems likely to generate greater efficiency in SLA. For that matter, I suppose, it is left to be seen whether deep thought is as effective as some of us hope. Much work is to be done, and perhaps you're just the guy to do it. Could we suggest that you consider studying these questions for us as part of your PhD program? :D

Larry Latham

staypuffinpc
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:09 pm

study

Post by staypuffinpc » Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:33 pm

Well, thanks for the reply, Larry. Actually, I am fluent in both Spanish and Portuguese (by no means is my speech native, though). In fact, although my wife could pass for a native U.S.-born citizen at times (yes, her English is that good and she didn't move here until she was 17 years old!), we decided that Spanish would be the official language in our home. So far, so good with the one kid we've got (he's only 11 months so we don't know how it'll go).
As far as your suggesting I study the efficiency of gaming vs. deep thought, it is something I've thought very much about. So much so, in fact, that it was one of the deciding factors that led me to grad school at the University of Georgia, where one of the professors is one of few people in the field of IT that has actually addressed and studied the subject, teaches. Of course, I've got a lot of other notions on my plate right now, too, so only time and a lot of reading will tell what path I'll take (although I admit that my greatest aspiration, outside of family and church, is to develop a highly effective CALL system, to be directed with teacher intervention).
As far as the online forum thing goes, yes, those stipulations you mentioned to have to be met, which means the forum is not a place for beginning or even low-intermediate learners. Seriously, though, if you want to check out how other teachers have used it, start your own class on NiceNet.org. This'll allow you to have your own class, but as an admnistrator, they'll give you the key to the "teachers" class, where teachers discuss uses, upgrades and frustrations. You'll see that, like any tool, you do have to follow some guidelines. For example, you typically can't just tell your students they "can" post their ideas because they won't. You'll also discover that the most successful teachers require at least a certain number of responses to other students' ideas by a certain time of the week. Once your students see the relevance, though, they should really get into it. Anyhow, I'll get off my soapbox now and just say that if any of you have or do try this, I'd really like to read some feedback on how you did it and how it went. I'm going through papers, journal articles and online archives right now and, overall, it seems like a very effective way of getting students involved (if, of course, they meet the skill set Larry presented).

Rania
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 10:36 am
Location: Germany

Post by Rania » Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:52 pm

That's exactly the point i.e. to make a lesson interesting and stimulating.The question that is left then is whether we can achieve it only with games ....
Hi everyone - have been away for a few days.
Staypuffinpc, you've made a few interesting points which I'd like to think about and address but am under pressure for time. I just wanted to come back to the point made above...

I think the pro-games brigade, or perhaps specifically me!, have been trying to make the point that yes, we want to make our lessons interesting and stimulating but I have never maintained I could *only* do it with games. What I was trying to make clear is that a teacher is faced with a variety of student types and student situations and sometimes has to use - to quote a person more famous than myself - "any means necessary" to get students motivated, stimulated and give them a love of what we do and what they learn. The use of games is a tool, so to speak, that can be applied to the classroom successfully and not one that should be automatically dismissed. I'm very interested in methodology, and in hearing about the experiences of other teachers in the classroom, because I always think 'the more I know, the more I can use'... I add something new to the spectrum of my skills and abilities. That's why I personally - just a personal view - believe you have to be careful before you dismiss something absolutely. I never used to give dictations (= boring, old-fashioned, tedious) but I read books and articles about using dictation as a learning tool and now I do. I learned to use them sensibly and effectively and now my students actually have fun doing a dictation and learn a lot from it, too. I never used translation (God forbid, no translation in the classroom, are we back in 1901 or what?) but again, over the years I've read up a bit on the use of translation in certain situations, watched other teachers lead activities that use translation, and have come to the conclusion that it, too, can be used effectively. In my opinion, these are all *tools* at our disposal ...

:)

As regards motivation - I agree, a teacher has a lot to do with students' attitudes towards language learning. I, personally, LOVE grammar. I'm a real nerd, I admit it, because I really like the way language functions, I love the links between English and its European counterparts, I love our various tenses and how they work and why we choose and use them, I love the richness of the English language's vocabulary, I love its depth and colour, I love to trace its history and development, I just love language and language structure. I love to teach grammar in such a way that my students rip it apart and discover its functions themselves, with me prodding them in the right direction, where necessary. A student once told me that I make grammar 'exciting' and to be honest, it's probably true, because it is, for me, very exciting. It was, perhaps, the nicest compliment I have ever been given about my teaching. With this attitude I guess we make language learning a fun for our students, whether we are pro or contra games in the classroom. :D A genuine love of what you do goes a long way - or, as Mary Poppins once said ...

... "a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down" ... :lol:

LarryLatham
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

Tools

Post by LarryLatham » Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:08 am

Tools are great, Rania,

But I just can't resist quoting a lesson my father gave me way early on about tools: Dull tools can be dangerous! :wink:

I also really love language structure, and love to explore it in the classroom with students. More than anything else you may have in your arsenal, your love of the language is probably what makes you a standout teacher. No bag of teaching tricks, no "methodology", can even begin to be as fruitful as a teacher's personal passion. :) Don't you agree?

Larry Latham

Rania
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 10:36 am
Location: Germany

Tools and Quality X

Post by Rania » Mon Sep 15, 2003 9:15 am

Hi everyone,

“Dull tools can be dangerous” – I like that. Unfortunately I think it can sometimes be linked to the attitude “If it’s not broke, don’t fix it!”

What I mean to say is that we all get stuck in a rut sometimes. If something works well we are – for reasons of time, pressure, comfort, security, lack of motivation, curiosity or whatever other variables – loathe to change it. Our tools could be dull but we mightn’t necessarily be aware of it. The ‘I’ve always taught this way and it’s been fine so far’ attitude is ok but I don’t think we should restrict ourselves to the safety of what we know for that reason.

As I said, sometimes it’s worth thinking about our taboos in a different light – as we have done on this forum. You have to – I believe – think about why you like/dislike something and examine your reasons for doing so. As I said in my previous post, I was trained to believe that TTT is negative, translation is negative, dictations are old-fashioned and boring. But each of these three can be used in a positive way and it’s worth knowing how you could use them and when. Whether or not you choose to, whether or not the opportunity to do so presents itself ... that’s another thing.

I guess I just don’t like that absolutist streak – we’ve touched on this before, Larry. I am wary of teachers who proclaim (and proclaim is often the best word for it) that they “NEVER do so and so!” How very dull. Why not? For me, these absolutist declarations are a sign that this teacher has set off on fixed path and probably won’t deviate from it that much. There doesn’t seem to be as much opportunity from professional growth as there could be.

I would like to think that my passion is part of the reason why I’m a reasonable teacher – I have given some spectacularly bad lessons, so ‘standout’ may be a misnomer, heh heh. I often ask myself if there is not another element to teaching that could be defined as ‘Quality X’? I had a lecturer at university whose passion for the English language made his seminar on punctuation fascinating. No joke. Yet I have had other teachers whose boundless enthusiasm could not alter the fact that they just couldn’t communicate the thought or message or concept they wanted to.

Hmmm… Have to think about that one …


Rania

LarryLatham
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

Passion

Post by LarryLatham » Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:59 pm

Rania,

I couldn't agree with you more. :) You and I may argue about the details of our craft, but every time I read one of your posts, I find so much in it that I admire and respect. We are, in many respects I think, "cut from the same cloth."

I believe you about the professor lecturing on punctuation who may have been fascinating. Regarding the others you mentioned, could it be that they may have had passion, but not for the specific subject they were lecturing on? I've met teachers too who seemed enthusiastic (they were all smiley and animated), but their enthusiasm was centered on something else. Perhaps they wanted to display a great classroom performance. They were not very effective teachers! Probably to some degree because their actual knowledge of the subject matter was limited to what they read in a book or two. That doesn't show true passion. The passionate teacher studies constantly and reflects personally on her subject matter as part of her lifestyle. (As you seem to do. :) )

Larry Latham

Post Reply