Classroom managment for difficult students

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Sienna
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:00 am

Classroom managment for difficult students

Post by Sienna » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:31 am

Hi, I'm a first year teacher in a Chinese high school. Most of my classes are well-behaved but I do have a few classes that are troublesome.
How do I manage classes of 77 students, about 15-17 years of age, who continue talking without pause? Possibly they have learning difficulties but the underlying problem is they simply do not want to learn English.
I have tried to make the lesson as interesting as possible but still they persist in talking, even when I tell them not to. I have used negative reinforcement, making students who talk stand up and then stand at the front of the classroom if they persist. But this seems to make them 'celebrities' of the classroom, so it doesn't really have the desired effect. If they are passing notes I will take the note away from them. Then they understand what they have done wrong. But talking is difficult to control. I would be grateful for all feedback! Thanks :)

Duncan Powrie
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm

Post by Duncan Powrie » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:26 pm

You might get more of a response if you post again on the "Teaching Unmotivated Students" thread (the one with the flashing bell and a zillion views, about ten threads or so below your one here).

I do appreciate these kind of problems exist (I've taught in schools where the WHOLE SCHOOL, students AND staff, treated the foreign teachers as something as a joke, almost a nuisance, they'd practically cordoned off the "serious" grammar classes, which the Japanese staff taught by themselves, from the "conversation" classes, which I had to team-teach with Japanese teachers who mostly didn't ever appear to really want to be there!), but I've never been one to take much of an interest in "Classroom Management/Discipline" etc.

I'm not saying that teachers who (have to?) take these kind of measures never get round to having enjoyable classes, but I can't help but wonder how they would react if they walked into that "ideal" classroom - would they be at a loss as to what to do if there were no students to stare down or ballbust? No punishments to inflict?

What I'm trying to say is, immediately treating these kids like the brats they are acting like is definitely going to make the current class a drag, for you but especially for them, and there is no guarantee that it will improve the situation in the long run (I rather fear that it will just turn into a "battle of wills").

There must be a few kids in the class who respond to or seem to like you...try to take them "under your wing" and give them the attention they deserve as you slowly nudge the whole class to at least look at what you've prepared. If you spend time on thinking of how to present the instructions efficiently it might also help (you could even print them in Chinese on the handouts so everyone has no excuse for not getting cracking - "I don't know what to do" - remember, the instructions/ obediently listening to you give the instructions and following you to the letter, are not actually the focus of the class, the language WITHIN the activity should be the focus!).

Of course, it is difficult if very few are giving you the time of day; and it can get more difficult still when the "disruptive" ones start taking an interest, and distracting you (and everyone else) from the tasks at hand by showing how "witty" and clever they are. You might not like to give them the attention and kudos, but I think it is a little harsh to deny them totally (and who knows how much attention or not they are getting at home from their parents etc).

So, if you can accept that teachers are not Gods, and that they are not ultimately morally superior to the kids in their classes, you might end up convincing your charges that you care not only about English, but also about them too.

I took a patient and, for some disciplinarians, perhaps a rather weak or lax approach in my classes at that school, so I didn't ever really totally overcome the problems (particularly with the more lackadaisical older adolescent types), but with more than a few classes who really seemed to HATE it at the beginning, I noticed they were lightening up and sometimes smiling, laughing even with (at?) me, and with their "friends" during activities (which they actually started completing!) as the term progressed (I even drew comments about the changes in attitude from the Japanese teachers).

It seemed to me that my colleagues, who were more inclined to discipline their classes, were still having a harder time of it (or feeling that they were) than I was by the time I resigned. :lol: (I didn't resign because of the students, but because of the haughty attitude of the Japanese teachers, and the general neglect of, and lack of interest in, the conversation programme by the school management).

Ultimately, though, I guess you have "laid your cards on the table", "shown your hand" etc, and now that they "know" you are a or want to be a disciplinarian, perhaps that it the way you are going to need to continue playing it. :( Let's hope some people with more experience in ballbusting or staring mad rabid hyenas down (and perhaps even shooting them dead) reply soon! :wink:

P.S. I suppose that having such large classes doesn't help, you will probably need to take a more active role than I did (in classes of up to 30) and become "the center of attention" if for no other reason than to get people working.

Sienna
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:00 am

Post by Sienna » Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:25 am

So, if you can accept that teachers are not Gods, and that they are not ultimately morally superior to the kids in their classes, you might end up convincing your charges that you care not only about English, but also about them too.

Ultimately, though, I guess you have "laid your cards on the table", "shown your hand" etc, and now that they "know" you are a or want to be a disciplinarian, perhaps that it the way you are going to need to continue playing it. Let's hope some people with more experience in ballbusting or staring mad rabid hyenas down (and perhaps even shooting them dead) reply soon!
While I understand and appreciate your comments, I have to disagree on a few points. First of all, in no way have I implied that teachers are morally superior to students and if I didn't want them to learn, I wouldn't care so much about getting them to listen to me, would I?

I am looking for an effective solution to the problem, without resorting to ignoring the disruptive students completely or what you termed a 'lackadaisal' approach. I think the aim of discipline is to show students limits in order to encourage respect, for the teacher and fellow students who want to learn. All students need discipline.

If the disruptive students are making the well-behaved students afraid of speaking up, for fear of being seen as 'uncool', obviously the problem needs to be dealt with. Students understand it is rude to talk in class with their Chinese teachers, but they seem to treat English class as a joke and therefore do not show the teacher respect.

If I can teach the students respect, I am halfway there.

Duncan Powrie
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm

Post by Duncan Powrie » Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:44 am

Sienna wrote:First of all, in no way have I implied that teachers are morally superior to students and if I didn't want them to learn, I wouldn't care so much about getting them to listen to me, would I?
No, you haven't implied that, and nor have I implied that you implied that. If I was implying anything, it was just that teachers who seem to positively relish disciplining their students (and I must stress, I don't know if you are or will be one of them) might be in danger of taking the moral high ground and not looking at improving their materials or general approach beyond the management issues. I was obviously talking generally, just making a point in general terms. I thought you said you'd welcome "all" feedback! :lol:

I was aware that I had not addressed the "I discipline because I care about my students, or at least their English development" viewpoint, I agree that this is a perfectly valid one, but as I kind of said in my previous post, I think there is a danger of not appearing to care about the students as people (rather than just being recepticles for knowledge) if we get too sensitive, serious and tough with them too quickly about "our" subject.
I am looking for an effective solution to the problem, without resorting to ignoring the disruptive students completely or what you termed a 'lackadaisal' approach.
And if you refer to, and post again on the other thread that I mentioned, you should get more effective solutions than the mere thoughts and refelections I myself have offered here.

By the way, my use of "lackadaisical" refers to some of my past students, rather than the approach (I appreciate my style is not always easy to follow!).

You obviously place a lot of importance on "respect", but if that is what a teacher values most from their students, above all else, the students may detect that, resent it (again, I am not saying you have this kind of massive ego!), and take a lot more fun in wounding the teacher's pompous, self-important pride than they might have otherwise.

I am playing devil's advocate a little here, I do understand your plight and appreciate that you need to do something about it! I am just urging caution is all. :wink:

Anyway, I hope the situation there improves for you, especially because English is an increasingly important subject and skill that people really do need to learn!

Duncan Powrie
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm

Post by Duncan Powrie » Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:32 am

Basically, you will get similar advice from most people: 1) Do everything you can to make the lessons enjoyable and interesting (as a matter of professional courtesy, this is usually taken as a "given" - "Yup, check, I do that, of course!" :wink: ), and if the students dare to show ingratitude by being inattentive, lazy, disruptive etc, then 2) do any number of the following nasty things to them: (there then follows a list ranging from stopping the lesson and eyeballing them, through threats, to actually killing them before expelling their dead bodies :lol: ).

Call me a softie, but I prefer to keep returning back to stage 1, I never really want to press onto stage 2. And, in my experience (in my previous job, which was probably the worst I've ever had), 1) was all I needed to effect a turnaround (albeit a slow one) in the students' attitudes and behaviour.

BTW, not saying that my materials were ever much good, but I really did try to always improve upon them and think of more enjoyable activities.8)

undeterred
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:31 am
Location: japan

Post by undeterred » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:40 am

I also have a class with misbehaved students. I tried many things and some backfired on me with disasterous results. If the school or your boss is aware of the problem and does nothing to rein in these students than there is nothing you can do.

As for my own class, I have given up. I have resigned myself to the idea that if the school can't bother neither will I. I feel a great weight has been lifted from my shoulders and I am feeling much better about myself.

Afterall, what do I care if these kids can or can't speak English? I used to have this idea that it was a matter of professional pride that made me insist that each and every student follow the lesson and be able to master the target language.

Now, I think about my job as lots of paid holidays, good salary and 2 bonuses a year. In fact, those things are given to me probably because the powers that be realize the difficulty I face on a daily basis as I attempt to conduct lessons.

So, take a step back and concentrate on what makes you happy. Incidentally, I have come to this conclusion after nearly 15 years teaching English in Japan. Furthermore, I came to this very forum several months ago seeking solutions to the problems you are dealing with.

Kind regards,
undeterred

fluffyhamster
Posts: 3031
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:57 pm
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

Post by fluffyhamster » Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:43 am

I think we all have thoughts like yours, undeterred, and often give up on certain classes (or the majority of students within them) in our minds at least. But, if in your heart "you" aren't retaining some optimism or goodwill towards even the worst student, and if in "your" time outside of class "you" aren't still trying "your" best or getting on with teaching-related projects or thinking, then it is perhaps time to consider leaving the profession.

(I use scare quotes around "you" and "your" there to show that I am talking generally, I am imagining that it really is just this one "class" that you have given up on! I mean, you must have more than the one class to teach still, right?:wink: ).

Anyway 15 years is a lot of experience, so I hope things don't get you down too much and that you can somehow soldier on and rekindle whatever passion you might still have for teaching. :P

undeterred
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:31 am
Location: japan

Post by undeterred » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:29 am

Hi Fluffy Hamster,

Not to worry. I have definitely not lost my love of teaching, something that grows stronger with each passing day. I will continue to soldier on and I look on this years experience and a valuable lesson. It takes several years to find your pace at this school, according to the veterans, and if I have been able to do so after two years than I am ahead of the game. We could perhaps call it the intensive course!

I love your user name. Where are you teaching and how goes it?


Kind regards,
undeterred

fluffyhamster
Posts: 3031
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:57 pm
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

Post by fluffyhamster » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:54 am

The posts above on this here thread tell you what the school I was teaching at was like. The second half of the post at the link below will bring you up to date with the rest of my story and help fill the picture out some more:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... 1966#11966

By the way, the link at the end of the above linked post would redirect you back here, so don't bother clicking on it! :lol: :wink:

8)

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