I teach ESL to 16 year olds. Some of the work we do is 'open question' type stuff. Some students have made me proud by writing a full page. However, whilst the meaning isnt obscured, it's often full of spelling and grammatical mistakes. Do i correct everything? I teach 3 classes of 30 students - 90 in total. That would be a whole lot of correcting !
Because i set them open question work, it's also hard to do the corrections on the board for the benefit of the whole class.
Suggestions?
Correcting written work. How much? How often?
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Sally Olsen
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- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:24 pm
- Location: Canada,France, Brazil, Japan, Mongolia, Greenland, Canada, Mongolia, Ethiopia next
It would help to know where you were teaching because it would make a big difference.
I found that in Mongolia and Greenland in particular, the students were marked for ideas and not "surface issues" as Janet Giltrow calls these kinds of errors you mention. The students were really marked against each other with the one with the least errors and the best idea getting the best mark. Even the teachers were graded this way when they were in competition.
But if they do manage to come to a native speaking English country they are at a disadvantage because their classmates are native speaking and can do much better. The foreign students are shocked if someone actually cares about such mistakes and say that they did so well in English at home.
Fortunately for them, most instructors here also mark for communication but it seems to me that it is just for monetary reasons. The foreign students pay a whole lot more for courses here and if they failed wouldn't encourage their friends to come which would seriously harm the instititutions.
But then they hit the real world and are soon fired for not being able to produce a document that conforms to the "surface features". No one ever tells them it will be necessary which doesn't seem fair to me.
If something doesn't have the proper spelling, punctuation, etc. you have to guess what the person meant and supply the meaning for them which means that you might be misinterpreting what they wrote and either giving them the benefit of the doubt or marking them down when they intended to do what you wanted.
But if you mark for grammar they stop writing.
It seems to me that you have to write and then rewrite and rewrite again, consult with others, make sure you have a good editor around. So that would mean you have to give back their answers, get them to meet in groups to help each other with the errors and ways to make the writing more powerful or precise, and then at some point be their editor. It might also mean that you have to have a good purpose for the writing so that it is worth all that effort - publish it in some form where they see that it is useful to be correct. Probably you would only want to do that once or twice a year at 16 years old and more often as they get to 18 and ready to go somewhere else.
When the students don't know me, I often go into the classroom for my first class dressed as a cleaning lady in older clothes with a rag around my head and a duster in my hand. I clean up around the classroom and then come to front and start the class. Often one or two of the students laugh and think I am playing a joke, trying to put them on. Then I remove the rumpled clothes to reveal a business suit and the rag to reveal a salon hairdo, put on the kitten heels and get out my computer pointer. It is easy to make the point that you have to "dress" the part to impress either in person or in writing.
I found that in Mongolia and Greenland in particular, the students were marked for ideas and not "surface issues" as Janet Giltrow calls these kinds of errors you mention. The students were really marked against each other with the one with the least errors and the best idea getting the best mark. Even the teachers were graded this way when they were in competition.
But if they do manage to come to a native speaking English country they are at a disadvantage because their classmates are native speaking and can do much better. The foreign students are shocked if someone actually cares about such mistakes and say that they did so well in English at home.
Fortunately for them, most instructors here also mark for communication but it seems to me that it is just for monetary reasons. The foreign students pay a whole lot more for courses here and if they failed wouldn't encourage their friends to come which would seriously harm the instititutions.
But then they hit the real world and are soon fired for not being able to produce a document that conforms to the "surface features". No one ever tells them it will be necessary which doesn't seem fair to me.
If something doesn't have the proper spelling, punctuation, etc. you have to guess what the person meant and supply the meaning for them which means that you might be misinterpreting what they wrote and either giving them the benefit of the doubt or marking them down when they intended to do what you wanted.
But if you mark for grammar they stop writing.
It seems to me that you have to write and then rewrite and rewrite again, consult with others, make sure you have a good editor around. So that would mean you have to give back their answers, get them to meet in groups to help each other with the errors and ways to make the writing more powerful or precise, and then at some point be their editor. It might also mean that you have to have a good purpose for the writing so that it is worth all that effort - publish it in some form where they see that it is useful to be correct. Probably you would only want to do that once or twice a year at 16 years old and more often as they get to 18 and ready to go somewhere else.
When the students don't know me, I often go into the classroom for my first class dressed as a cleaning lady in older clothes with a rag around my head and a duster in my hand. I clean up around the classroom and then come to front and start the class. Often one or two of the students laugh and think I am playing a joke, trying to put them on. Then I remove the rumpled clothes to reveal a business suit and the rag to reveal a salon hairdo, put on the kitten heels and get out my computer pointer. It is easy to make the point that you have to "dress" the part to impress either in person or in writing.
Last edited by Sally Olsen on Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry - I'm in Thailand teaching Thai kids ESL 4 times per week. 25-30 to a class.
Your post raises some great issues.
My own personal opinion is that Thai kids and even adults are not encouraged to think freely and express ideas. Just my opinion - i'm not trying to start a debate.
I have tried to encourage free thinking - and the kids eventually do seem to be getting their heads around it. I even told them - the grammar doesnt matter - but you must justify what you are saying. Mentally ask the question 'why?' and then answer it on paper.
What is your name?
Bill (Why?) because my Mum liked it (why?) because it was her father's name etc etc.
So, now i'm getting genuine feeling, free thoughts, and i love it. However, the grammar is all over the place and i just dont have the time to correct every single error in every students' book.
Like you said - too much correction and the writing stops. That is what i dont want !
However - the final exam in English, as set by the Government, is quite grammar focused, but VERY lacking in original thought. It's all multiple choice and there are no open questions in it at all.
I'm caught between a rock and a hard place. Prepare them for free-thinking expression and hope the grammar comes later, or prepare them for a test that should have been thrown out years ago.
Your post raises some great issues.
My own personal opinion is that Thai kids and even adults are not encouraged to think freely and express ideas. Just my opinion - i'm not trying to start a debate.
I have tried to encourage free thinking - and the kids eventually do seem to be getting their heads around it. I even told them - the grammar doesnt matter - but you must justify what you are saying. Mentally ask the question 'why?' and then answer it on paper.
What is your name?
Bill (Why?) because my Mum liked it (why?) because it was her father's name etc etc.
So, now i'm getting genuine feeling, free thoughts, and i love it. However, the grammar is all over the place and i just dont have the time to correct every single error in every students' book.
Like you said - too much correction and the writing stops. That is what i dont want !
However - the final exam in English, as set by the Government, is quite grammar focused, but VERY lacking in original thought. It's all multiple choice and there are no open questions in it at all.
I'm caught between a rock and a hard place. Prepare them for free-thinking expression and hope the grammar comes later, or prepare them for a test that should have been thrown out years ago.
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Sally Olsen
- Posts: 1322
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:24 pm
- Location: Canada,France, Brazil, Japan, Mongolia, Greenland, Canada, Mongolia, Ethiopia next
You are absolutely right in all you say. Congratulations on getting them to think. I also think that is the most important. And some of the grammar will follow. They still have two years to absorb grammar don't they until they take the exam? Are they taking after school classes in English? They will get some of it through that. It is a process for sure and some never seem to make it.
I really recommend writing and correcting in groups. We had a prof at Carleton that used this method. She would ask the students to think of three topics they could write on a particular subject and quickly write those down. Topics were something important to the students - you can ususally see the headings in your textbook and I imagine that 16 year olds are interested in Friendship, Sports, Entertainment, Thai history, goverment and so on.
After they have three things they could write about the topic they talk to a partner about the three and negotiate which one they would like to write about the most.
Then they write for 15 minutes on that topic without taking their pen off the paper. If they can't think of anything to say they write, "I can't think of anything more to say because...." If they don't know the English word they fill in the Thai one to be translated later.
They then read this to their partner. The act of reading helps to correct some of the errors that they will see themselves or their partner will point out. Their partner can also ask questions which they write down for the other person as well and then the first person rewrites answering the questions and correcting the mistakes.
They then meet in groups of four and pass around the work correcting what they can and asking the teacher who is roaming around the groups for advice when they can't. They can ask other groups too of course. You try to form these groups with one of good students in them until you run out of good students and as a teacher stay near the ones with poorer students.
Next they write it up on a paper that has a margin on the right side of at least 2 inches. You can just get them to fold under two inches on the right side so they won't write on it. In that two inches they can write questions or make comments. " I don't know if this is the right word. I am not sure about this verb tense. etc. " Then you only have to comment on their comments which cuts down the marking considerably.
This method gives them many skills that will carry over to their working situation.
The other thing you can do is type out all their work and give it back to them with corrections once or twice a semester. That gives them a whole range of subjects which gives them more chance to read something similar to what will be on the exam.
You can take back these little booklets and put them in the library for future years. It provides good reading of things they are really interested in at just slightly above the level they are capable of writing. Of course, there will be a range from the good to the terrible but that is great for the terrible because they get to see how good some of the students are in their class. I never put in their names but every student knew what others wrote from the content. Still there were no mistakes in the terrible student's writing as I had corrected it and so they good students had more respect for the poorer ones because their ideas were often fun or off the wall or even profound.
It was a win win situation for everyone including future classes.
If you are a fast typist this should just take you one day and the benefits are really worth it.
Finally, put two or three of the best contributions on an overhead and take them apart showing how they are constructed, what words they used that make the piece powerful, what comes first, second, how they built up the argument or constrasted or ordered or gave exmaples and what tense they used to make the verbs say what they meant. You could even write a sample to show them. Get them to think of every part from punctuation to paragrpahs to spelling to format on the page to see how it all fits in.
I really recommend writing and correcting in groups. We had a prof at Carleton that used this method. She would ask the students to think of three topics they could write on a particular subject and quickly write those down. Topics were something important to the students - you can ususally see the headings in your textbook and I imagine that 16 year olds are interested in Friendship, Sports, Entertainment, Thai history, goverment and so on.
After they have three things they could write about the topic they talk to a partner about the three and negotiate which one they would like to write about the most.
Then they write for 15 minutes on that topic without taking their pen off the paper. If they can't think of anything to say they write, "I can't think of anything more to say because...." If they don't know the English word they fill in the Thai one to be translated later.
They then read this to their partner. The act of reading helps to correct some of the errors that they will see themselves or their partner will point out. Their partner can also ask questions which they write down for the other person as well and then the first person rewrites answering the questions and correcting the mistakes.
They then meet in groups of four and pass around the work correcting what they can and asking the teacher who is roaming around the groups for advice when they can't. They can ask other groups too of course. You try to form these groups with one of good students in them until you run out of good students and as a teacher stay near the ones with poorer students.
Next they write it up on a paper that has a margin on the right side of at least 2 inches. You can just get them to fold under two inches on the right side so they won't write on it. In that two inches they can write questions or make comments. " I don't know if this is the right word. I am not sure about this verb tense. etc. " Then you only have to comment on their comments which cuts down the marking considerably.
This method gives them many skills that will carry over to their working situation.
The other thing you can do is type out all their work and give it back to them with corrections once or twice a semester. That gives them a whole range of subjects which gives them more chance to read something similar to what will be on the exam.
You can take back these little booklets and put them in the library for future years. It provides good reading of things they are really interested in at just slightly above the level they are capable of writing. Of course, there will be a range from the good to the terrible but that is great for the terrible because they get to see how good some of the students are in their class. I never put in their names but every student knew what others wrote from the content. Still there were no mistakes in the terrible student's writing as I had corrected it and so they good students had more respect for the poorer ones because their ideas were often fun or off the wall or even profound.
It was a win win situation for everyone including future classes.
If you are a fast typist this should just take you one day and the benefits are really worth it.
Finally, put two or three of the best contributions on an overhead and take them apart showing how they are constructed, what words they used that make the piece powerful, what comes first, second, how they built up the argument or constrasted or ordered or gave exmaples and what tense they used to make the verbs say what they meant. You could even write a sample to show them. Get them to think of every part from punctuation to paragrpahs to spelling to format on the page to see how it all fits in.
Sally - thanks so much for taking the time to post your excellent advice.
Oddly enough - the answer was staring me in the face all the time. Peer review! Why didnt i think of that?!
It's simple for me, and beneficial to the students.
Bank holiday today and tomorrow, but i will be using your suggestions from Wednesday onwards.
Once again - thanks for taking the time to reply so thoroughly.
Oddly enough - the answer was staring me in the face all the time. Peer review! Why didnt i think of that?!
It's simple for me, and beneficial to the students.
Bank holiday today and tomorrow, but i will be using your suggestions from Wednesday onwards.
Once again - thanks for taking the time to reply so thoroughly.