I teach at a Technical College where students are required to present their final project in English to a panel of experts.
Part of my job is to prepare them for these presentations.
However, there's a rift in the process building up to these presentations:
As long as it's isolated technical issues, personal success stories, jokes, explanations of one kind or the other the students do fine, but as soon as it's more complex issues it's a different story.
They search the internet for information, they download stuff that they often neither fully understand nor pronounce in any way that can be followed, and then they stand there, read it off their notes, often material that was never meant to be presented in the first place....
And then they're seriously upset when I give them a bad grade, and don't understand why I insist on them speaking freely, using their *own* English - when the language of the original sounds soo much more elegant and sophisticated to them.
I feel that the final project presentations, when they sound ok, reflect far more of my work which has gone into it, than their own, considering how much coaching and correcting I usually end up doing.
How do you approach this problem - if you've got a similar one, that is?
Presentations
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
-
serendipity
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:49 pm
- Location: Wiener Neustadt, Austria
Sounds exactly like what happened in my high school class this year. I suggest one main point. Don't let them use notes! Even if they are good at memorizing things, this will discourage them to some degree from memorizing things that are too complicated/complex.They search the internet for information, they download stuff that they often neither fully understand nor pronounce in any way that can be followed, and then they stand there, read it off their notes, often material that was never meant to be presented in the first place....
Secondly, if you can, meet with each student to prepare the presentation. This gives you a chance to water down the unnecessary language and to see that students are on track.
Thirdly, some students are going to have great presentations but will need to use words that others don't know. Find a way to present that vocabulary so listeners aren't lost. You can have them prepare a bilingual vocabulary print to hand out as they begin (and explain or not), or they can be taught to define the words in their home language as they utter them during the presentation.
Fourth, don't be too hard on their grammar. Know what their limitations are, and give them credit for making a presentation that communicates the points they intend. Let them know, however, what you will be docking points for! If they see that they must use certain things, and they didn't, you have a fair evaluation. (Example, they must use passive voice 3 times. Or, they must show 2 examples for every major point.)
-
debskirkby
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:15 am
- Location: NZ
I've also prepared students for presentations before.
We allowed them to have notes but no full sentences, just note form...their note cards were checked before they gave their talk...so that encouraged more free speaking.
And before they gave the presentation they practised on eachother, so I said they have to be able to understand eachothers presentations which discourages long complicated sentences off the internet.
You can even give them the marking schedule and they have to mark eachother according to that to make them more aware of what is expected.
We allowed them to have notes but no full sentences, just note form...their note cards were checked before they gave their talk...so that encouraged more free speaking.
And before they gave the presentation they practised on eachother, so I said they have to be able to understand eachothers presentations which discourages long complicated sentences off the internet.
You can even give them the marking schedule and they have to mark eachother according to that to make them more aware of what is expected.
-
serendipity
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:49 pm
- Location: Wiener Neustadt, Austria
Presentations
Thanks for these suggestions - having them practise to each other and help while they prepare their talk sounds reasonable enough.
Vocabulary isn't usually that much of a problem, since the issues of the presentation usually arise from material that we cover during the lessons - for example, we discuss the properties of beams in general and then they are asked to present all they know about a cantilever beam with an H- cross-section.
Pronounciation, however, that's a tough one. Their intonation goes completely flat, they usually get the stress wrong, and they fail to link words together as they would in a less artificial setting. I have to concentrate very hard in order to make out what they are trying to say, and I'm normally familiar with the material, so it must be something of an ordeal for their classmates to watch them struggle through the show.
And it must be an ordeal for their future audiences, too - their lack of confidence shows through, again and again, and their lack of enthusiasm about the task they've been assigned to.
I had them mark each other at the beginning, but they were ruthless to the point of cruelty, often letting personal resentments color their judgment.
Vocabulary isn't usually that much of a problem, since the issues of the presentation usually arise from material that we cover during the lessons - for example, we discuss the properties of beams in general and then they are asked to present all they know about a cantilever beam with an H- cross-section.
Pronounciation, however, that's a tough one. Their intonation goes completely flat, they usually get the stress wrong, and they fail to link words together as they would in a less artificial setting. I have to concentrate very hard in order to make out what they are trying to say, and I'm normally familiar with the material, so it must be something of an ordeal for their classmates to watch them struggle through the show.
And it must be an ordeal for their future audiences, too - their lack of confidence shows through, again and again, and their lack of enthusiasm about the task they've been assigned to.
I had them mark each other at the beginning, but they were ruthless to the point of cruelty, often letting personal resentments color their judgment.
-
debskirkby
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:15 am
- Location: NZ
True...it depends on the class dynamics I guess for pair assessment.
Intonation...making them aware of how much we sing song along I guess...but how do you do that...would be interested myself, all I can come up with is listening to a tape and putting in the arrows above the words. And the teacher doing a bad example of a speech (eg. all monotone, too fast...) so they can say what they found bad or hard to understand etc.
Pronunciation I find a bit easier, as you can pinpoint the troubles and find exercises and games to practise. But I think it would be a great idea to have a box of exercises in the classroom of all sorts of pron problems, and the students can search out what they want to practice and do it themselves in their own time or if they finish an activity before the rest of the class. Teachers are probably already doing stuff like this.
Maybe the pair assessment doesn't have to be marks, it could just be, "I didn't understand your point, can you explain further" "speak a bit slower"...I agree these pairs have to be chosen very carefully, friends hopefully, so that no back-biting occurs.
Any teaching intonation help would be greatly appreciated!
Intonation...making them aware of how much we sing song along I guess...but how do you do that...would be interested myself, all I can come up with is listening to a tape and putting in the arrows above the words. And the teacher doing a bad example of a speech (eg. all monotone, too fast...) so they can say what they found bad or hard to understand etc.
Pronunciation I find a bit easier, as you can pinpoint the troubles and find exercises and games to practise. But I think it would be a great idea to have a box of exercises in the classroom of all sorts of pron problems, and the students can search out what they want to practice and do it themselves in their own time or if they finish an activity before the rest of the class. Teachers are probably already doing stuff like this.
Maybe the pair assessment doesn't have to be marks, it could just be, "I didn't understand your point, can you explain further" "speak a bit slower"...I agree these pairs have to be chosen very carefully, friends hopefully, so that no back-biting occurs.
Any teaching intonation help would be greatly appreciated!
-
serendipity
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:49 pm
- Location: Wiener Neustadt, Austria
Intonation
I suppose that part of their resistance to picking up more of a sing-song intonation lies in local male-female stereotypes: Men here simply don't resort to changes in tone a lot, especially when they're trying to come across as assertive, and I, as a female English teacher, can't really do much to break up the patterns, simply because they associate my intonation patterns with feminity.
They tell me upfront that "it's allright for me to speak as I do", but if they emulated my intonation they "would sound far too effeminate for their liking".
I try to get across to them that it's simply a way of spicing up one's way of speaking, without any gender stereotype at all, but I'm afraid that I largely fail.
I wonder if there are any films where the hero (a strong, macho hero, preferably) resorts to a distinctive intonation pattern.
They tell me upfront that "it's allright for me to speak as I do", but if they emulated my intonation they "would sound far too effeminate for their liking".
I try to get across to them that it's simply a way of spicing up one's way of speaking, without any gender stereotype at all, but I'm afraid that I largely fail.
I wonder if there are any films where the hero (a strong, macho hero, preferably) resorts to a distinctive intonation pattern.
-
debskirkby
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:15 am
- Location: NZ
I'm thinking Tarzan?? (haha)
Definitely not Schwarzenegger although he's one of their own..."I'll be back" is the epitome of the problem...I actually lived in Austria for 7 years and one year in Germany so I know EXACTLY what your talking about!!
I know this doesn't help but I'm gonna do some research myself...see if I can find out something...just cause I've got some free time...watch this space!!
One idea though...have you ever watched "Who's line is it anyway"? It's an american show, 4 guys doing impromptu acting, and one of the slots they do is where each is given just one sentence or phrase to use and they have to make a story out of it, they are also given a scenario, I think one can say whatever, but the others have to make do with altering the intonation of their one phrase to differ the meaning, eg. really? really. REALLY! or something like that...dunno how that would work, depends which level class but it could be quite fun!!?
Definitely not Schwarzenegger although he's one of their own..."I'll be back" is the epitome of the problem...I actually lived in Austria for 7 years and one year in Germany so I know EXACTLY what your talking about!!
I know this doesn't help but I'm gonna do some research myself...see if I can find out something...just cause I've got some free time...watch this space!!
One idea though...have you ever watched "Who's line is it anyway"? It's an american show, 4 guys doing impromptu acting, and one of the slots they do is where each is given just one sentence or phrase to use and they have to make a story out of it, they are also given a scenario, I think one can say whatever, but the others have to make do with altering the intonation of their one phrase to differ the meaning, eg. really? really. REALLY! or something like that...dunno how that would work, depends which level class but it could be quite fun!!?
-
serendipity
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:49 pm
- Location: Wiener Neustadt, Austria
Presentations
Yea, this sounds kind of promising!
It would be even better if they were familiar with a local version of that show - and no, Arnie definitely isn't a role model here.
Thanks for looking into this - I really appreciate it.
It would be even better if they were familiar with a local version of that show - and no, Arnie definitely isn't a role model here.
Thanks for looking into this - I really appreciate it.
-
debskirkby
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:15 am
- Location: NZ
found two sites so far which seem ok...
http://iteslj.org/Lessons/Counihan-Acti ... ation.html
http://www.onestopenglish.com/Professio ... nation.htm
Hope they help... will post more if I find some!
Also presentaion sites:
http://www.onestopenglish.com/professio ... _maley.htm
Project work:
http://www.onestopenglish.com/Freeresou ... sp#project
http://iteslj.org/Lessons/Counihan-Acti ... ation.html
http://www.onestopenglish.com/Professio ... nation.htm
Hope they help... will post more if I find some!
Also presentaion sites:
http://www.onestopenglish.com/professio ... _maley.htm
Project work:
http://www.onestopenglish.com/Freeresou ... sp#project
I find the biggest problems my students have with presentations is a complete lack of public speaking experience. When they get up in front of a group of people they tend to panic, freeze, try to hide or just tense up. I think we as teachers (who do it every day) tend to forget how frightening it can be to someone who's never done it before. I was one of the shyest kids in my school, I hated people looking at me, let alone talking to me. One thing saved me, debating. My parents insisted, I was almost forced to stand up in front of 300 odd people and I nearly fainted. I somehow got through my first line and it got a big laugh. I suddenly woke up and realised that they WANTED to like me. I went from strength to strength until I won the school debating cup!
I think giving them as much time to practice as possible, on a wide range of subjects, is the best medicine. I recently taught an intensive 3-week course for college students. At the start they either refused outright to speak or mumbled along in a monotone. I broke them up into groups and assigned each team one side of a debate. They were suprised and a little confused as to what I expected of them but quickly got the idea. We did one debate a day for 3 weeks. At first I let them make their speeches and then came in as Devil's Advocate but it wasn't long before the rest of the class were cross-examining them themselves. We culminated in a court case, pitting Saddam, Bin Laden, Hitler and GWB against each other as defendants with 2 lawyers, several witnesses and a bunch of evidence. They were striding around the courtroom (classroom) haranguing the Jury and beating their fists on desks.
Once they get the feel for speaking to a group of people they can talk about anything, confidence is the key.
I think giving them as much time to practice as possible, on a wide range of subjects, is the best medicine. I recently taught an intensive 3-week course for college students. At the start they either refused outright to speak or mumbled along in a monotone. I broke them up into groups and assigned each team one side of a debate. They were suprised and a little confused as to what I expected of them but quickly got the idea. We did one debate a day for 3 weeks. At first I let them make their speeches and then came in as Devil's Advocate but it wasn't long before the rest of the class were cross-examining them themselves. We culminated in a court case, pitting Saddam, Bin Laden, Hitler and GWB against each other as defendants with 2 lawyers, several witnesses and a bunch of evidence. They were striding around the courtroom (classroom) haranguing the Jury and beating their fists on desks.
Once they get the feel for speaking to a group of people they can talk about anything, confidence is the key.
-
serendipity
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:49 pm
- Location: Wiener Neustadt, Austria
Thanks, Deb!
Yes, cimarch, confidence is the key. I very often get the impression that the school-system in the States is more effective than ours when it comes to promoting a sense of self-confidence and self-esteem - maybe because people are not as likely to put each other down over there, and much more likely to show appreciation of each other's work.
Whenever students come back from a year as an exchange-student over there, their self-confidence has sky-rocketed, it's as if they are about to re-invent the wheel.
The problem is that a presentation which isn't going well doesn't do much to boost a student's confidence, no matter if the teacher finds kind words to make it appear less disastrous.
One of my students, by the way, chose to talk about the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. He actually travelled to Malaysia in the Easter holidays, to take photos and to "do on-site research". That's interesting, and I suppose one cannot top *that* for enthusiasm, even though I'm really thrilled about his up-coming presentation, I'll just have to make sure I get it through to the others that it's language that matters first and foremost, and that great expenses are not *all* that paramount.
English as a foreign language is one of the subjects where the people with rich parents are at an advantage, isn't it?
Yes, cimarch, confidence is the key. I very often get the impression that the school-system in the States is more effective than ours when it comes to promoting a sense of self-confidence and self-esteem - maybe because people are not as likely to put each other down over there, and much more likely to show appreciation of each other's work.
Whenever students come back from a year as an exchange-student over there, their self-confidence has sky-rocketed, it's as if they are about to re-invent the wheel.
The problem is that a presentation which isn't going well doesn't do much to boost a student's confidence, no matter if the teacher finds kind words to make it appear less disastrous.
One of my students, by the way, chose to talk about the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. He actually travelled to Malaysia in the Easter holidays, to take photos and to "do on-site research". That's interesting, and I suppose one cannot top *that* for enthusiasm, even though I'm really thrilled about his up-coming presentation, I'll just have to make sure I get it through to the others that it's language that matters first and foremost, and that great expenses are not *all* that paramount.
English as a foreign language is one of the subjects where the people with rich parents are at an advantage, isn't it?
-
debskirkby
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:15 am
- Location: NZ
wow...that IS enthusiastic!!
Confidence...I read a quote today..."Self-confidence is the result of a successfully survived risk." - Jack Gibb
I guess it comes with time, each time we risk being ridiculed and "survive" gives us a kick I guess
So these presentations are giving them life-skills! That's all good!!
In terms of students who have more wealthy parents, I think you have a point, sometimes I feel stink at the amount the students have to pay for learning English, and some really eager students can't study as much as they would like cause it's too expensive for them! Quite a few students have asked me to recommend cheap study options, but they're just not out there. Or are they??
Confidence...I read a quote today..."Self-confidence is the result of a successfully survived risk." - Jack Gibb
I guess it comes with time, each time we risk being ridiculed and "survive" gives us a kick I guess
So these presentations are giving them life-skills! That's all good!!
In terms of students who have more wealthy parents, I think you have a point, sometimes I feel stink at the amount the students have to pay for learning English, and some really eager students can't study as much as they would like cause it's too expensive for them! Quite a few students have asked me to recommend cheap study options, but they're just not out there. Or are they??
-
serendipity
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:49 pm
- Location: Wiener Neustadt, Austria
Well, I hope these presentations will amount to real-life skills in the long run - it's not if all of them are soaring successes, and they're well aware of their shortcomings when they do less well than they'd expected.
But coping with failure is a life-skill, too, I suppose.
Here, all English lessons are free of charge, and even the course material is provided. It's all part of the public school system, and it's often not really appreciated as it's taken for granted.
I've had, however, fathers turn up announcing that their sons would be treated to a 4-month crash course in a Californian summer camp if they should fail English. Thanks, Daddy, that *really* ruins any motivation that was there in the first place - there's no competing with imaginary Baywatch babes introducing you to the sort of language that really matters, definitely not by demanding presentations on structural engineering issues.
But coping with failure is a life-skill, too, I suppose.
Here, all English lessons are free of charge, and even the course material is provided. It's all part of the public school system, and it's often not really appreciated as it's taken for granted.
I've had, however, fathers turn up announcing that their sons would be treated to a 4-month crash course in a Californian summer camp if they should fail English. Thanks, Daddy, that *really* ruins any motivation that was there in the first place - there's no competing with imaginary Baywatch babes introducing you to the sort of language that really matters, definitely not by demanding presentations on structural engineering issues.
-
serendipity
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:49 pm
- Location: Wiener Neustadt, Austria
Chuffed to bits...
Just posting here to say how absolutely chuffed I am about the way these presentations are going right now.
The two top girls of the class volunteered to go first, and oh my, they set a standard! You should have been there, really.
I had stressed the importance of eye-contact, so they figured that the best way to do it was to do it without any notes, so that the temptation to lock on to the notes would be minimized. They were just talking away, as if they were giving a guided tour to a bunch of tourists, and went on for well over 10 minutes, with slides and pictures and statistics, way beyond had expected, and with hardly any language hiccups.
These girls are absolutely fabulous, I'm telling you, the dream-students of every teacher! Maybe we should have a commemorative noticeboard to the most wonderful students somewhere.
No, really, I'm just overjoyed about what they accomplish.
The two top girls of the class volunteered to go first, and oh my, they set a standard! You should have been there, really.
I had stressed the importance of eye-contact, so they figured that the best way to do it was to do it without any notes, so that the temptation to lock on to the notes would be minimized. They were just talking away, as if they were giving a guided tour to a bunch of tourists, and went on for well over 10 minutes, with slides and pictures and statistics, way beyond had expected, and with hardly any language hiccups.
These girls are absolutely fabulous, I'm telling you, the dream-students of every teacher! Maybe we should have a commemorative noticeboard to the most wonderful students somewhere.
No, really, I'm just overjoyed about what they accomplish.
On the other hand...
It's true that the skills used in making good presentations are 'life' skills that can be used later, that the ability to present from notes is better than memorizing, etc.
However, IMHO, the teacher's main function is to get his or her students through the exam with the best possible results.
In my situation in France, my students have to present an unknown text (from the Economist or Business Week) with only 20 min preparation and no dictionary.
At the beginning, I tried to incorporate all kinds of ideas to enrich their presentations but, in the end, I have decided to 'go with the flow'. In other words, if some students feel more confident in memorizing standard phrases and lists of vocabulary, I'm not going to stop them.
In an ideal situation, each student would have time to learn the art of public speaking and have plenty of opportunities to gain confidence by practicing in front of the teacher. However, the reality for most students is that their presentation in English is just one part of an assessment that includes many other (time-consuming) elements.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to find the right balance between helping our students to develop new skills and being pragmatic about what the students can realistically accomplish in the time available.
It's true that the skills used in making good presentations are 'life' skills that can be used later, that the ability to present from notes is better than memorizing, etc.
However, IMHO, the teacher's main function is to get his or her students through the exam with the best possible results.
In my situation in France, my students have to present an unknown text (from the Economist or Business Week) with only 20 min preparation and no dictionary.
At the beginning, I tried to incorporate all kinds of ideas to enrich their presentations but, in the end, I have decided to 'go with the flow'. In other words, if some students feel more confident in memorizing standard phrases and lists of vocabulary, I'm not going to stop them.
In an ideal situation, each student would have time to learn the art of public speaking and have plenty of opportunities to gain confidence by practicing in front of the teacher. However, the reality for most students is that their presentation in English is just one part of an assessment that includes many other (time-consuming) elements.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to find the right balance between helping our students to develop new skills and being pragmatic about what the students can realistically accomplish in the time available.