I have recently started teaching at an ESL school catering primarily for adult migrants (already in Australia). My 'advanced' class has several students who have been in Australia for an extended period (up to THIRTY-FIVE YEARS) but whose skills, apart from spoken receptive, are shockingly poor, and in the case of one man, virtually non-existent. My background is mostly in teaching students who have studied grammar extensively at high school in Asia, and suddenly I'm faced with stuff like this:
'You are here, Australia, how long?'
'He's in Australia for long time 55 years ago'
'I work there...1997...2000'
Clearly, in my pedantic, grammar freak's opinion, these students need to go back to 'My name is...' and work from there, but I realise that this could be construed by some as a waste of time for people who have managed OK in this country for longer than I've been alive. So what should my priorities be? Most of the students in question aren't planning to sit IELTS or do any further study. For some, English classes are partly a social outlet, although this isn't true of everyone in the class.
I personally believe grammar is very important and I've witnessed first hand, outside the classroom, the impediment to communication that the long term resident's form of pidgin English can be. And don't get me started on pronunciation!
One of my students has pointed out the double effort required to un-learn bad, highly ingrained habits before re-learning the correct habit. I don't know how much priority to give to correcting the bad habits of a lifetime. Any ideas are welcome.
Can you teach an old dog new tricks?
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
I have a lot of students that fit in that category. In general, they arrived as immigrants and immediately went to work, raised a family, used enough english to get by, and never studied. When they come to school, they are older, with a lot of fossilized errors. My philosophy is to do what I can to give them the tools to improve their English. That includes grammar, pronunciation, listening, writing, and speaking practice. I just don't expect miracles. 
Most of them are interested in studying grammar even if they have trouble producing it. You can ask them for some of their thoughts on what they want to do as well.
Most of them are interested in studying grammar even if they have trouble producing it. You can ask them for some of their thoughts on what they want to do as well.Adults learn languages differently, usually following a set pattern acquired at school. I doubt, as you do, that going back to square one would help them a lot.
I guess it's imperative for them to learn to view their own English critically. They must learn to compare it to standard English, or the accepted variety of their host society.
The samples you gave sound much like survival quality sentences. Perhaps they need to experiment with new sentences whose meanings they can guess from the context.
Perhaps you can do some reading and explaining of manuals and DIY instructions with illustrations, followed by reading short stories in simplified English to give them a FEEL for the language.
But I wouldn't expect too much improvement from these students.
I guess it's imperative for them to learn to view their own English critically. They must learn to compare it to standard English, or the accepted variety of their host society.
The samples you gave sound much like survival quality sentences. Perhaps they need to experiment with new sentences whose meanings they can guess from the context.
Perhaps you can do some reading and explaining of manuals and DIY instructions with illustrations, followed by reading short stories in simplified English to give them a FEEL for the language.
But I wouldn't expect too much improvement from these students.
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Norm Ryder
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:10 pm
- Location: Canberra, Australia
Old dogs.
Hi marg,
Can I take it you're with the Migrant Resource Centre somewhere other than Canberra?
First of all, I'd like to endorse all that Glenski, Lorikeet and Roger have said, being an old dog myself, and having over the last ten years been working with the same sort of groups as you've described.
At the MRC here, we try to do as Glenski suggested and split our people into three or more levels; but that doesn't eliminate the sort of disparities in ability that you describe. And of course you must find two or more other teachers to do it - unless you're prepared to double or treble your own teaching hours. Another difference from what you've been doing to date is that you probably have these people only once or twice a week for a couple of hours each time, and, as you've said, they are there as much for the social contact as for learning.
Yet, as Lorikeet said, they often seem interested in some form of grammar learning. At this moment I have a beginners group that perfectly fits your description. I simply began by putting on the board three columns for subject-verb-predicate (not using those names of course) and began with "I like coffee" ... and from there over four weeks it's gone on building up with a lot of laughter and ribbing, and plenty of opportunities for pronunciation practice (accompanied by much face pulling etc.) so that even the Japanese couple here on holidays seem to feel part of the fun. It's classic "talk and chalk", but it seems to be working for the time being, anyway.
The aim is bit by bit to practise basic English word order, and to keep on building more into it (last class someone threw in the word "can", so now it's "I can cook Lebanese, French, Chinese and Australian food" (unfortunately she never learned to write either Arabic or English, but does everything she can to help set up the room and support the teacher). I haven't had to add too many verbs myself, as there's always something else that someone in the class has done, and that they know the word for; though it generally takes a bit of miming for the others to get the meaning. We then go round the class for everyone to practise using the new word in a sentence.
It helps, of course, Marg, that I only have twelve; and I imagine you have your work cut out if you have twenty or so. Tell us more about your situation: do you have men as well as women? Are there other teachers working with you? How much do they expect from their learners? What sort of resources and other support do you have?
Finally, Marg, there was a lot written about this issue in Oz about twenty years ago as the first wave of post-war migrants started to reach grandparent age. Your local library or local TAFE can probably put you on to some of it. It sounds as though it might help for you to know you're by no means alone in this, and there are plenty of different views on how to handle it. Some of Ken Willing's research at that time might be a good place to start (eg Learning Styles in Adult Migrant Education, 1988 my edition); and if you're in Victoria, Ruth Wajnryb who writes regularly for The Age is an expert on the subject and has written books and articles in the ESL journals.
So all the best. We need you.
Norm
Can I take it you're with the Migrant Resource Centre somewhere other than Canberra?
First of all, I'd like to endorse all that Glenski, Lorikeet and Roger have said, being an old dog myself, and having over the last ten years been working with the same sort of groups as you've described.
At the MRC here, we try to do as Glenski suggested and split our people into three or more levels; but that doesn't eliminate the sort of disparities in ability that you describe. And of course you must find two or more other teachers to do it - unless you're prepared to double or treble your own teaching hours. Another difference from what you've been doing to date is that you probably have these people only once or twice a week for a couple of hours each time, and, as you've said, they are there as much for the social contact as for learning.
Yet, as Lorikeet said, they often seem interested in some form of grammar learning. At this moment I have a beginners group that perfectly fits your description. I simply began by putting on the board three columns for subject-verb-predicate (not using those names of course) and began with "I like coffee" ... and from there over four weeks it's gone on building up with a lot of laughter and ribbing, and plenty of opportunities for pronunciation practice (accompanied by much face pulling etc.) so that even the Japanese couple here on holidays seem to feel part of the fun. It's classic "talk and chalk", but it seems to be working for the time being, anyway.
The aim is bit by bit to practise basic English word order, and to keep on building more into it (last class someone threw in the word "can", so now it's "I can cook Lebanese, French, Chinese and Australian food" (unfortunately she never learned to write either Arabic or English, but does everything she can to help set up the room and support the teacher). I haven't had to add too many verbs myself, as there's always something else that someone in the class has done, and that they know the word for; though it generally takes a bit of miming for the others to get the meaning. We then go round the class for everyone to practise using the new word in a sentence.
It helps, of course, Marg, that I only have twelve; and I imagine you have your work cut out if you have twenty or so. Tell us more about your situation: do you have men as well as women? Are there other teachers working with you? How much do they expect from their learners? What sort of resources and other support do you have?
Finally, Marg, there was a lot written about this issue in Oz about twenty years ago as the first wave of post-war migrants started to reach grandparent age. Your local library or local TAFE can probably put you on to some of it. It sounds as though it might help for you to know you're by no means alone in this, and there are plenty of different views on how to handle it. Some of Ken Willing's research at that time might be a good place to start (eg Learning Styles in Adult Migrant Education, 1988 my edition); and if you're in Victoria, Ruth Wajnryb who writes regularly for The Age is an expert on the subject and has written books and articles in the ESL journals.
So all the best. We need you.
Norm
g'day marg,
you have an interesting scenario there. Before you dive right into heavy grammar you might want to find out why the students are studying and what they would like to study (if anything). There are excellent grammar units (odd numbered units) in CUP's Language in Use by Adrian Doff- i reckon it's the best textbook around in terms of presenting both engaging and educational (with special emphasis on context) material. For review try the "Grammar Horses" activity in Rinovulcri's Grammar games 2- it's a cracker. it gets even the most anti grammar student thinking about grammar and usually they find out they enjoy the game immensely.
cheers
you have an interesting scenario there. Before you dive right into heavy grammar you might want to find out why the students are studying and what they would like to study (if anything). There are excellent grammar units (odd numbered units) in CUP's Language in Use by Adrian Doff- i reckon it's the best textbook around in terms of presenting both engaging and educational (with special emphasis on context) material. For review try the "Grammar Horses" activity in Rinovulcri's Grammar games 2- it's a cracker. it gets even the most anti grammar student thinking about grammar and usually they find out they enjoy the game immensely.
cheers
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Tessa Olive
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:05 am
- Location: Sydney
Hi, Marg,
When I read your post, I felt I was reading about my own situation. I'm working in Liverpool, Sydney, and have a mixed bag of 'intermediate' students such as you have. Some view the class as a social outlet, some want to improve their English in order to enter the workforce or further their studies. The bulk of them are middle-aged. Some have been in Aust. for 30 odd years, others a few years.
Because their skills are varied, I tend to teach a bit of everything. My lessons are generally topic-based. Throughout the lesson, I note where problems lie re: pronunciation, grammar, formulating written and spoken sentences, and I dedicate time during the lesson to working on some of those problems.
To go back to "My name is..." may bore students senseless and put them off coming. They may feel insulted.
You can't correct all their mistakes - you're only human.
Good luck!
When I read your post, I felt I was reading about my own situation. I'm working in Liverpool, Sydney, and have a mixed bag of 'intermediate' students such as you have. Some view the class as a social outlet, some want to improve their English in order to enter the workforce or further their studies. The bulk of them are middle-aged. Some have been in Aust. for 30 odd years, others a few years.
Because their skills are varied, I tend to teach a bit of everything. My lessons are generally topic-based. Throughout the lesson, I note where problems lie re: pronunciation, grammar, formulating written and spoken sentences, and I dedicate time during the lesson to working on some of those problems.
To go back to "My name is..." may bore students senseless and put them off coming. They may feel insulted.
You can't correct all their mistakes - you're only human.
Good luck!