Basic English vocabulary...how many words?

[kaysa]

Hi, this is my first time to read or post on this board, so forgive me if this question has already been answered...and then tell me where to find the answer...
One of my Chinese pen pals asked how many English words he should know. Is there a standard number? How about the vocabulary needed to pass the TOEFL?

Thanks in advance,
Kay in AK

[Glenski]

How many words does he need to know? Depends on the purpose.
http://englishenglish.com/english_facts_12.htm
http://englishenglish.com/english_facts_13.htm

"Students require a vocabulary of between 8,000 and 15,000 words to pass the TOEFL, TOEIC, AP, and Cambridge tests."http://www.eslincanada.ca/passtests.html

[Roger]

Hello, my China-based colleague,

since you are new here let me tell you you should never allow your CHinese charges believe that "knowing" such and such a number of vocables is all that English is all about; steer them away from this quantitative (and in my view: stupid!) thinking.
THis is the ver5y Chinese way of not taking a subject seriously while at the same time torturing themselves by cramming bits of the language into their tiny memory! All to be forgotten once the "exam" is passed!

For instance at my uni, the leaders told us expat teacher that our students will have to "know" 8000 vocables by the end of university career; nobody told the students, nor do the students know how many they already have piled into their brains!
8000? Is that "a lot" of words?
No and Yes!
Can they handle "so many" words?
Usually, they can't even recognise 1800 of the most recurrent words although they have "studied" them for "years" (repeating what they have learnt previously, albeit forgotten again).
Students at higher levels need to have specialised vocabularies, and that's where counting new words may be a kind of guideline although never a goal: my students hail from various different disciplines, so I am trying to focus on a vocabulary that they as future white-collar workers will need, as well as words that they might need for socialising, plus recycling of grammar rules in practice.
It will, perhaps, surprise you that students supposedly of adult age should know how to write a simple essay, a resume or a job application, right? Forget it - you have to teach them what a "title" is, what a "margin" is, and where the margins have to be made; you have to teach them the terminology of punctuation, sometimes grammar ("teacher, wha'ts an 'infinitive'?").
So, it's really up to your students to learn as much as possible, not merely in terms of numbers of new words, but in their practical applications.

[kaysa]

Thanks for the reponses. I do, however, have to take exception with the comment about "tiny memories" of learners. I should be so lucky as to have the memory of my brilliant Chinese friend/tutor who has just been offered a fellowship at an outstanding American university so he can get his doctorate in Computational Biology. This is the same guy who has 2 master's degrees...hardly the mark of someone with a poor memory. No, the problem is that English and Chinese are so fundamentally different that the task of learning one of them as an adult is fairly daunting. I have tremendous respect and empathy for the challenges. I started learning Chinese on my own at age 54. In two years I have progressed enough to carry on correspondences in Chinese with several dozen kind folks. Do I "know" Chinese?...absolutely not! Do I make basic mistakes?...every time I write! I figure I will be studying until the day I die. I can understand how frustrating it is to teach an adult learner who is starting from the beginning with English. I just pray that those Chinese friends who help me learn their language have a lot of patience and understanding for me.

As for the lexicon, I do know that the number of words will depend on the learner's needs and purpose. My friend just wanted some guidelines. He is highly motivated and does quite well, but he wants to learn even more. I have met quite a few highly-motivated dynamic learners among the Chinese, and I am that kind of a learner when it comes my own Chinese studies.

By the way, I live in Fairbanks, Alaska. I have never been to China, although I hope to go next year. I am learning Chinese because I think it is a fascinating language, rich in nuance and backed by thousands of years of development.

Kay in AK

[Roger]

You will probably soon find out for yourself that not every Chinese has two M.A.'s, nor are they capable of obtaining them. And you will see for yourself that here, "memory" is almost synonymous with 'brain', and so too much is made of quantitative learning.
That, and not the structural differences between Chinese and other languages, is the main stumbling block to their becoming proficient in a second tongue.
There are still thousands of languages that are thousands of years old, yet the CHinese are among the more difficult to teach.
It's mindset, a mind that's set in stone through communitarian "knowledge acquisition" from an early age through to university.
It is the lack of a focus on what the individual can achieve on his or her own, in their own responsability.

[kaysa]

Oh my...I am almost at a loss at how to respond to your post, Roger. I find it very hard to believe that you are even interested in teaching Chinese people English considering your very low opinion of their abilities...and your blatant stereotyping. I am sorry that your experiences have led you to your conclusions. I disagree with you on nearly every point. Of course I know that not everyone aspires to the same levels as some of my Chinese friends, but I have run into far more folks who want to improve their English proficiency than ones who are lazy about learning. I correspond with dozens of Chinese in China, plus I have another group of Chinese friends who are students in my city. Their biggest problem is lack of time for studing English, as they are either working long hours or enrolled in demanding classes...which they take in English, by the way.

Well, I have no desire to argue with you, but I do invite you to consider the possibility that you have not seen the whole picture.

[Roger]

Well, kaysa, I have now been in China for the last ten years, taught at every level right from kindergarten up to university and adults; I surely have met gifted and motivated students, but I have most of the time been dealing with the fall-out of a dysfunctional educational system that produces mediocrity for which I can accept no responsability.
One of my pieces of writing has been commissioned by a professional English teachers magazine.
I have lived in many countries, and am not frustrated, though without illusions. My job is very satisfying, but I can't close my eyes before the reality.

[kaysa]

Well Roger, I can see how you might reach your conclusions. I have not spent any time in China, let alone in her classrooms, so I can't claim any
authority on the matter. I've probably been lucky enough to have met and/or written to mostly highly-motivated Chinese students. I don't doubt that there are many mediocre students in China, just as there are here in the U.S. ,and I have been guilty of a reverse sort of stereotyping. The truth undoubtedly lies somewhere in the middle. I'm sure I hear from the eager learners because they are the ones willing to put the time and energy into corresponding with an American. I won't worry about the others.

I appreciate your latest comments.

Kay

[sola]

Interesting discussion.. Although Roger, your 10 years experience adds alot of weight to what you are saying, it doesn't change that it sounds condescending. Yes, get your wall up of defenses, it would seem like an attack at your efforts at trying to teach and your difficulties encountered. I sympathise, or empathise. It must be extremely frustrating to have a different spirit towards teaching and learning than your students. I will just start tutoring someone in English so I have absolutely NO authority, just my untainted, inexperienced perception. I was wondering if you had found some ways or strategies to overcome this barrier of learning by rote / this mentality.

[LarryLatham]

I hesitate to jump in here, because I'm not sure I have anything valuable to add. But I would just like to say, Kaysa, that although Roger's essays here may sound harsh to your ears, he has a solid basis for feeling the way he does. I do not think he has a low opinion of individual abilities, nor is he guilty of blatent stereotyping. He is, however, sharply critical of an education system in China which greatly suffers partly from cultural tradition, and partly from political opportunism, and which often finds itself in ridiculous circumstances. And the Chinese can be frustratingly myopic about it.

I know this for myself because when I was in my early 50's, I too started to learn Chinese language, and even went to Taiwan (rather than China, for political reasons, mostly) for several years to study and also to teach English. I went there with the same kinds of feelings you seem to espouse. I think you have to run into the Chinese Wall before you can fully appreciate it. I think Roger does, and I do too.

That said, I still love the Chinese. They are so interesting, perhaps because they are so different from me, as an American. I believe Roger loves them too, and is critical because of it. Absolutely, some people in China do not fit the mold, and many individuals are brilliant, either traditionally or in new ways that may be the best hope for China's future. I have many friends in Taipei, and even a few in mainland China, and they tend to be courageous because they stand out. Standing out is sometimes not advisable in modern Chinese society, but some people risk it and even thrive on it.

I urge you to keep on with your studies and with your pursuit of relationships with people in China. By the way, Chinese language is not actually so different structurally from English. Both languages follow the same overall Subject-Verb-Complement structure. Chinese adjectives always come in front of the words they modify, just as English adjectives do, only Chinese is even more consistent. Of course there are differences, but nothing like the directly opposing differences existing between English and, say, Japanese.

At any rate, read Roger's posts again, and do not dismiss him out of hand. He may be rough, but he knows whereof he speaks.

Larry Latham

[kaysa]

Larry, thank you for your comments. I respect your viewpoint and acknowledge that I haven't (yet) run into as much frustration because I am in the U.S., not in China. Based on information and observations shared by a good Chinese friend here, I am sure that every criticism both you and Roger are made are valid. I tend to be pretty idealistic, even at my age, and I know that colors my perceptions of how things are. My friend is atypical of Chinese society, and she knows it. She said she was criticized for being "different" while in China and she knows she'll meet with strong opposition when she returns there to live.

I'm probably much better off teaching English to Chinese students and immigrants here in the U.S. rather than in China. Here, I can be enthusiastic and optimistic, and use my own approach. This way I can devote my time to those people who are eager to learn. I'm also doing my part ,via pen pal correspondence, to encourage a few Chinese learners to open their minds to some new ideas. Most have never written to an American before.

Yes, English and Chinese have a lot of structural similarities, but they are very different in some respects. My Chinese friend and I often tease each other about our "American" or "Chinese" minds, but the truth is that we have vastly different logic and views of the world. I believe that the better I can understand that Chinese mind, the better I can learn the language.

This has been an interesting thread.

Kay in Alaska

[LarryLatham]

I'm probably much better off teaching English to Chinese students and immigrants here in the U.S. rather than in China. Here, I can be enthusiastic and optimistic, and use my own approach. This way I can devote my time to those people who are eager to learn. I'm also doing my part ,via pen pal correspondence, to encourage a few Chinese learners to open their minds to some new ideas. Most have never written to an American before.

You can indeed do lots of good here, Kay. I wish you the best, not only with your teaching, but also with your studies in Chinese and your friendships with Chinese people. The best of them are wonderful people, and that's for sure. Roger will agree with that, I have no doubt.

Larry Latham

[sola]

I have nothing to add to the thread here, but would like to thankyou for the latter posts. They are enlightening and interesting to read, especially for someone, like myself, who has just signed up on this forum to find helpful information and experiences that I could learn from. Being critical is one essential ingredient for transformation, among a few others, such as compassion, flexibility, and creativity, to mention a few off the top of my head. Hope to find more posts, like these, filled with personal experiences and wisdom.

[Roger]

Thanks, Larry, for rushing to my succour. I am beginning to underswtand you a lot better too; I had no idea what your relationship with the Chinese was.

I am sorry, kaysa, if I come across as "condescending", but I won't apologise for anything expressed so far. If you want to understand a student's difficulties you might benefit from learning about the difficulties a teacher has teaching that student. I would refer you to the Employment forum - where there always is a lively debate on the vast gulf separating western teachers in China and their opposite numbers.
You said yourself that you are a person with an idealistic inclination. If I hadn't had that in the beginning, I wouldn't have lasted any one year here!
I taught English Literature in my first year here, and know what: I lost my job because I was the only person in the whole college to take this subject seriously, apart from a minority of my learners. The majority of mystudents were, and I am not at all making this up, slackers! They were lazy bums that complained about the rigours of studying literature because no one had told them before that they must do homework on their own, be prepared for lessons, know what the teacher is talking about and understand the textbook they were using.
The principal told me my students were free to do as they saw fit, and it was none of my right to ask them to undergo a test every month to see whether they had done any reading. She underpinned her sermon on some wisdom attributed to Mao: "If you don't agree with your teacher's choice of a textbook, choose your own one." Yes, some of my students (60 to a class!) came equipped not with the book containing excerpts from major novels but with comic strips!
Now, kaysa, do tell me: if such people will teach ENGLISH to the next generation of Chinese students, what can YOU expect in terms of motivation and results?
One word: Mediocrity!

But I want to sound off on a positive note, so I will tell you I had my happiest teaching experience when I was working in a kindergarten! I taught for two years, and by gosh, I was happy for an uninterrupted 12 months there. My preschool pupils were as bright as any in the world, but they were not mentally impeded by inculcated reflexes and ideas alien to us. It was a joy teaching them, although I had to learn most of my ropes anew as I had had no kindergarten training before.
That the second year was not as happy as the first one has nothing to do with this discussion. Suffice it to say I am very happy at this very moment, teaching at an university.
And I have great rapport with my students.

Still, I must say their English level is somewhat low considering the input they have received over eight years or more.

No, this has nothing to do with their first tongue, or only insofar as their first tongue interferes with their second one.
But good teaching should enable a student to switch to a new language without his or her first language intefering.
I am a living example of this notion, and so are hundreds of millions of bilingual and multilingual speakers throughout the world.