Srcambeld!

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LarryLatham
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Srcambeld!

Post by LarryLatham » Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:53 pm

The following news article appeared on p. 17 of the February 2004 issue of "Discover" magazine, a popular U.S. publication on science, technology, and medicine:

Srcambeld!

When you raed a sencente, the oerdr of the ltetres in a word dsnoe't mteatr as long as the fsirt and lsat ones are in the rhgit pcale. Last fall, a widely circulated e-mail written in a similarly garbled fashion reached Denis Pelli, a professor of psychology at New York University. He set to work figuring out why this trick works. When a reader focuses on a word, Pelli says, the eyes take in both central and peripheral views. The eye's periphery can't focus as narrowly, making it difficult to identify the letters in the middle of a word, so the brain recognizes the word as a unit based on the first and last letters, as well as key features such as dangling g's and tall d's. If the intervening letters are scrambled, the reader can still identify the word fairly quickly. Faster readers do this using sentence context. Pelli finds that when the whole sentence is scrambled to remove contextual information, slow and fast readers comprehend individual words, scrambled or not, at nearly the same rate.


Now my questions is, is there anything here that any of you can imagine we language teachers can use to improve our students' learning of reading skills? :)

Larry Latham

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Lorikeet
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Re: Srcambeld!

Post by Lorikeet » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:14 pm

LarryLatham wrote:When you raed a sencente, the oerdr of the ltetres in a word dsnoe't mteatr as long as the fsirt and lsat ones are in the rhgit pcale.


Larry Latham
I've seen something like this before, but what actually interested me was my difficulty in reading the last word. I wanted to read it as "scale." I think I would have read it better as "plcae." I wonder if that says something about consonant clusters. ;)
Last edited by Lorikeet on Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:25 pm

I agree with you, Lorikeet. I also had some trouble with that particular word, and think it might better be spelled as you have. (But that was the way it was spelled in the article). That was the only word I had trouble with though. :)

Well, what about consonant clusters. I am aware of the difficulties in pronouncing them for speakers of certain languages. What about the difficulties of reading them? Do you know something about that?

Larry Latham

Norm Ryder
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scrambled

Post by Norm Ryder » Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:40 am

Hi Larry and Lorikeet
I also read 'scale'; but that was probably because the four letters in the order 'cale' grabbed my attention before the initial 'p' had time to register.

When training people for plain English writing I used to play a trick of briefly flashing cards with long lists of numbers or letters. If there were obvious combinations in the middle, people could usually remember the three or four digits or letters at the beginning and end, but not much in the middle. But they would often spot and remember well-known combinations in the middle (sometimes at the expense of the extremities). [Example: ACTU = Australian Confederation of Trade Unions; or the initials of a national sporting association or home ground.]

I can't say off-hand where you'll find it, but I believe a computer programming theory called 'string-theory' has something to say about this.

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scrambled

Post by Norm Ryder » Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:44 am

Of course I meant "if there were NO obvious combinations in the middle"; and there I 'proof read' what I thought was there. I guess you both read what you actually saw.

Is that also part of the problem: familiarity or otherwise?

And I also forgot to sign off .... alzheimers is stepping up the pace!

Norm.

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Post by Sally Olsen » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:05 pm

I saw this news clip as well and put it up on the teacher's board as an interest item. I then used it in a workshop to show them the kids probably don't care about spelling all that much and they can read their work just fine and usually the teacher can too. We discussed whether it was such a big deal to work on spelling when there is so much else for them to learn in learning English and we have limited time. In normal communications for the students, they use a computer and will get a spell check on these words. Of course, there was a fierce discussion on modelling and having things correct or they would learn incorrect information. They brought up the fact that I hadn't corrected a poster that I let the kids put up that had faulty spelling on it and said that the rest of the students would be looking at this error. Several kids did point it out which I thought was great but the rest were just interested in the information on the various stages of change in Michael Jackson's nose.

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Post by LarryLatham » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:36 pm

What was the outcome of your discussion on whether issues of spelling should receive some sort of priority or at least emphasis? And, who was involved in this discussion...was it primarily teachers, students, administrators, or a mix?

Larry Latham

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Post by Sally Olsen » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:35 pm

It was a workshop for teachers and staff from grades 4 to 12. The Danish teachers (who are the majority of English teachers here) came down heavily on the side of correcting mistakes and red penciling everything that was wrong in the student's books and from what I have seen from the student's workbooks, continue to do this. (BAK - a teacher operates on their basic Beliefs and Acquired Knowledge) They thought it was an interesting idea to type out student's stories with corrections and let them compare the corrected version to their original. They didn't think that they would have time to do this but we had a "contest" and one teacher red penciled the notebooks and I typed the stories and I came out a bit ahead. (Yes, I do type fast -75 words per minute but they do too.) However, it came out that they were doing more fill in blank type exercises and rarely had the students writing stories which was interesting because the final exam is an essay. I also exchanged stories with the three other places in Greenland that I have been and a group in Japan. The teachers complained because I had "corrected" the stories and the teachers didn't think they could do that or that it was fair to their students to see the corrected stories. They said it was easier for me to correct them and of course it is. I corrected the stories they sent me and sent them back and even marked the essays in Japan as if they were in Denmark. It brings up a lot of interesting difficulties. If the teachers are not confident in their own English it is safer to focus on things like spelling and filling in the blanks with answers in the back of the textbook. The students never see an example of another student's writing and so don't know their level until the final exam which is then a shock. Of course, it means that they are not using groups with all the wonderful opportunity for growth. When I saw some red penciled essays from the final exam, the censor had missed a lot of mistakes but the marks were still pretty fair and although I marked them all 3 points higher we were on the same curve. My students didn't do any better or worse than last year's students (of course 48 students don't really make a good experiment). All you can do is plant the seed.

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Correction

Post by LarryLatham » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:45 pm

Sounds pretty typical. My own views are similar to yours, Sally. In fact, I too have typed my students' essays with "amendments" to return to them for their comparison with their original writings. Perhaps mine were slightly different from yours, however. I did not correct their mistakes, and in fact went to no small trouble to make it clear to them that my purpose was not to correct their mistakes. Even further, I made it a point to tell them I wasn't sure I could even identify all their mistakes, or even that what I thought might be a mistake might really not be, because it is entirely possible (at least with higher level students) that I could misinterpret their intentions, and assume a "mistake" that wasn't theirs, but rather mine. (I have seen this happen, hundreds of times, in the "corrections" of other teachers). My idea, when retyping their papers, was to take my best understanding of the ideas they were trying to convey in their writing, and totally re-write it in my style. I then told them that what I was giving them was one native speaker's attempt to say what it seemed they wanted to say. When they compared it to their own work, they were not to look at it as a correction of their mistakes, but rather as another way to write it...this time from a native speaker. I made it clear that any other native speaker would write it a different way, and they should not believe they should write it my way. My writing could be considered as a general model, perhaps, but not something to be copied, only understood. I asked them to reflect on why I might have written something the way I did, and whether they thought their way or my way conveyed their actual thoughts better. Since the original thoughts were theirs, sometimes their way of writing was better than mine...and only they could really assess that.

Of course, I ran into lots of objection to my handling of student writing, but always from teachers, never once from a student. Students loved it. And they told me they learned a lot from it. Teachers rarely thought much of what I was doing...thought I was avoiding my "responsibility" to correct the students' mistakes. I always thought those teachers were the same people who think that playing good music means playing all the "right" notes. 8)

Larry Latham

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Post by Lorikeet » Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:20 pm

I've been teaching a CALL class, with two days in the computer room and three days in a regular classroom. One activity I've done is to have them use some discussion questions as a base, and discuss a topic on one day. The next day they have to write a paragraph stating their opinion on any aspect of the topic they discussed. Initially, I corrected their mistakes and handed them back, and I also put their corrected paragraphs on the Internet for other students to read. Then I decided to do it another way. Instead of correcting their errors on their papers, I just write a corrected version on the Internet. I correct obvious grammatical errors, but leave the "flavor". The students check the Internet to see what their mistakes are, and can correct them if they want to. Then they read the paragraphs the other students have written. This has proven to be very effective, as those students who want to spend the time checking my corrections can do it, while I don't have to spend time writing corrections on the papers of students who aren't going to look anyway. In evaluations of the class, this activity is one that everyone liked. If you want to take a look at the paragraphs, they're at http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~lfried/writin ... iting.html

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Post by Sally Olsen » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:11 pm

Impressive Lorikeet! This is what learning on the computers should be.

I will take your advice on what to say to the students too, Larry. It is just my version of their ideas and they do often tell me that I wrote something that they didn't mean and we change it. I really like the fact that they are reading each other's work though in all these cases and think it brings up the level of the writing quickly.

BTW I just moved my glass of milk and will never bring it near the keyboard again and I took all my precious papers out of a plastic bag and put them in an official looking folder.

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Post by LarryLatham » Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:16 pm

Sally Olsen wrote:BTW I just moved my glass of milk and will never bring it near the keyboard again and I took all my precious papers out of a plastic bag and put them in an official looking folder.
:) :) :)
A colleague of mine once brought a fresh cup of coffee to his desk and set it down too near the front edge. After opening the drawer containing all his files, an unintentional bump of the desk caused the cup to fall straight into the open drawer. Needless to say... :)

Nice job, Lorikeet! I love your idea of posting student work like that, especially in the way you have done it. I believe it must help your students in many ways. Sally is right: this is one of the best uses of computers in the ESL/EFL classroom that I've seen to date. Great thinking on your part. :)

I believe that "Correction" may be an unexamined motherlode of potential value in language learning. Hardly anybody does it well, but that is only because it has scarcely been looked at by the theorists. As it is currently done, it has nearly zero value to most students if we judge it by its ability to improve students' performance. A very few students will profit from it, but they, by any measure, are exceptional. Teachers know that intuitively, but just keep on correctin'...I guess because that's what they have been taught by the establishment. "How can we best correct our students?", and "What should we correct?" are only two of many questions left open, or worse, just blown off as "obvious" by most everybody in education. I sincerely hope someone will someday take them seriously.

Larry Latham

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Post by Andrew Patterson » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:38 am

I too, have seen this before, but your comments on consonant clusters got me thinking that this is not just a novelty. In particular it got me thinking about common contracted abbreviations. (Contracted not truncated.) I think that some letters and clusters may be more important than others. Let's look at some contracted abbreviations to see if it helps:

abbr
elmt
soln
prgm
mgt
mgr
chmn
mln
bln
xmpl
xl
ctrl
Sgt
Dr
cttee
bldg
scrn
pg
Qwd
Fwd
Reqd
Mkt
Mktg
txt
grp
estd
edn

I realise that I have truncated the final "e" in places, that probably says sth. Some letters certainly do appear to reccur

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Post by Sally Olsen » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:34 am

One of my colleagues did do a study of all the ways we correct from wincing to red pencil and beyond. It was fascinating. I think there is quite a bit in SLA research too. The best way I heard to correct from several of my profs was to divide the paper with a line on the right hand side or just fold it over about 2/3rds the way across the paper. The student then writes the essay on the left and goes back and writes beside any line or word that he/she thinks is wrong or isn't sure. At first the right hand column is pretty bare because they don't know their mistakes or they wouldn't be making them but as the course goes on, the right hand column often becomes as full as the left. We don't know when a student has chosen the right way to say something but is still not sure about it. The prof then could take up the mistakes that showed up in the majority of papers but the students were noticing and that made the difference to their growth in using the language. He spent as much time correcting as before but it was dialogue and much more interesting for him.

What is soln?

I personally like all the abbreviations that are being developed through email, once I know them. You can type much faster and I always thought it was so useless to spell through, through and not the easily understood thru. Radio scripts are written with these abbreviations as well and are so much easier for ESL students to read - they also show the pauses and places where the announcer should emphasize words. It is great reading for beginners. I do have difficulty reading things without punctuation though and i without a captial does set my teeth on edge for some reason.
Funny. I suppose my lack of quotation marks bothers some?

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Post by Lorikeet » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:39 pm

o sally imho wut u say n ur idea of no caps n online spellin m8ks me sad

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