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Verb tense mystery! Please help!
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:29 pm
by RomanGirl
Hi all,
Can you help me with this: "having had".
I saw in the 12th step of Alcoholics Anonymous the following, "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we carried this message.....etc."
What tense is "having had"???
I've been online for hours now and in the bookshop, and cannot find it anywhere.
thanks a bunch,
RomanGirl
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:15 pm
by shuntang
"Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we carried this message.....etc."
It means nearly:
"We have had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, and/so we carried this message.....etc."
Shun Tang
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:24 am
by Duncan Powrie
Shuntang is spot on here.
I just thought I'd throw in my scabby two cent's worth by saying that if you are crazy and your mind fires off in all sorts of strange directions, you might like to (just this once) view "Having" as a gerund, which makes it "equivalent" to the "missing subject" (We) plus "have".
But obviously, it is not REALLY a gerund - is it?!
Hmm where's my medication...
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:23 am
by shuntang
Criticism here seems not enough. People are trying to get some help.
You have forgot both your medication and help.
Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:22 pm
by madeira
You`re in the past perfect, with a reduced clause.
You have these choices:
A) The members, (who had eaten their socks), were happy.
B) The members, (having eaten their socks), were happy.
C) (Having eaten their socks), they were happy.
If you`re careful about punctuation, these all say the same thing. The only diff.　is in C, where we`ve switched to passive. Probably because we know who the nasty sock-eaters are.
Any help?
Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:33 pm
by madeira
Oops! Read too fast.
No reduced clause; just past perfect passive.
Sorry!
Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:36 pm
by madeira
Oops! No reduced clause!
I was reading too fast.
Just past perfect in the passive.
"Having had"
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:03 am
by Norm Ryder
I saw in the 12th step of Alcoholics Anonymous the following, "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we carried this message.....etc."
RomanGirl
Could I suggest a different view, namely that this is simply a participle phrase in the past perfect, dependent on "we".
Sorry, madeira, but I can't see it as a passive, which would be: "a spiritual awakening having been had".
And shuntang, I must come to the defence of Duncan (though I'm sure he is holding back from tact alone!) - he's said nothing that suggests criticism to me: if anything, he is self-deprecatory. Another case of cultural misunderstanding, I suggest.
Ciao ragazzi!
Norm.
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:19 am
by Glenski
According to Practical English Usage, by Michael Swan (p.430, section 423.1), this is an example of a perfect form (specifically a "perfect -ing form"). If you don't like the use of "-ing" to describe this, I (not Swan) suggest that you label this as a perfect progressive form.
The book cites the example,
Having seen the film, I don't want to read the book.
Present verb forms are made with have + past participle.
In your example, and the one above, I would say that it serves as an adjective phrase that modifies the subject of the sentence.
"having had"
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:58 am
by Norm Ryder
Glenski
Yep. Both Collins Cobuild (UK) and Leech and Svartik's Communicative Grammar (US) use more or less the same terminology.
Norm.
Re: "Having had"
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:22 am
by Duncan Powrie
Norm Ryder wrote:And shuntang, I must come to the defence of Duncan (though I'm sure he is holding back from tact alone!) - he's said nothing that suggests criticism to me: if anything, he is self-deprecatory. Another case of cultural misunderstanding, I suggest.
Ciao ragazzi!
Norm.
Sorry, Norm, I didn't actually revisit this thread until today! So I wasn't holding back out of tact...but it's hardly the sort of thing I'd get het up over (and Shuntang does/did kind of have a point). Thanks for coming to my defence, anyway!
Glenski sure seems to know his stuff!
I would buy another copy of Swan, but I've bought (and given away) the Second edition of PEU FOUR TIMES ALREADY!!! (I should just lug around the mint copy I've got stored back in the UK, but I can't afford to pay the excess baggage through airports, and get tired of posting stuff around the world and back again!).
I don't suppose it's been brought out on CD-ROM, has it? (ooh a rising tag there, must note it
). I do have the COBUILD CD-ROM though with all the goodies it contains, what a one-stop resource!!
