cute wannabes

Miz · Post by **Miz** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:34 am

Hi everybody

I've begun to teach a class of beginners recently. They're all between the ages of eleven and thirteen, and they'd never been to an english school before. However, all of them know a little of english, since they've been having english classes at elementary school.

So, today, that was the situation: it was our fourth class, and I wanted them to make a collage and write a small introduction conversation between two characters. Something pretty much like: "Hi, what's your name? I'm john, and you? I'm Maria, nice to meet you"... But, instead of this, they started to brainstorm about more elaborated sentences, some in the past tense, some even with modals. The introduction dialogue idea was forgotten and they started to think of little stories and situations.

So I just let them do what they wanted to do and just watched as they discussed the pictures and used the dictionary. I found the result really interesting later on, when I sat and read what they'd done. But there are some really serious mistakes, and now I'm a little worried about my procedure. I mean, it was really worth for my analysis, for knowing what they can or can't do with the language, but I guess I have to think about a way to correct the mistakes without antecipating the approach of many structures at the same time. Maybe I should keep the sheets with me and work on them throughout the semester, and give them the chance to reconsider some structures when it's "the time to actually learn them".

Do you have an opinion about that?
I just didn't feel like sticking to my command at that particular time. I really like to see students trying to find things out by themselves, but sometimes I need to control myself. Just got to be sure when's the right time. Can you give me some advice?

Thanks in advance

Milena

ps: Larry, if you come across this topic, I just want to thank you for you support and clear explanations about grammar. I really appreciate it!

Miz · Post by **Miz** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:56 am

Wow, I shouldn't have posted this message here at Adult Education... Actually, I'd thought I was at Applied Linguistics. Lol, I'm dumb...

Anyway, I would really enjoy any reply

Roger · Post by **Roger** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:08 am

Maybe you review their mistakes one by one in class, without identifying the "culprits"?
It would seem to me they are not by any stretch of imagination "beginners"...

How old are they?

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:41 am

Well, hello there, Milena,

I just happened upon this thread almost by accident. I don't usually get over here, but was just strolling around the ESL Cafe site, when I caught your nickname as the author of a new topic.

Sounds to me like you've got a great class there. What more could you ask? You gave them a simple task, but wisely left it open ended, and before you knew it, there they were, running with ideas and tenses and modals and their dictionaries...and probably giggling and just having a wonderful time with English! It may be the last thing you need because you seem to have great instincts as a teacher, but here's my advice anyway: don't you dare kill that enthusiasm by focusing on their errors. Celebrate what they have done, and let them celebrate it too. OK, so they have some errors...presumably mostly with syntax. What a wonderful time for you to introduce them to English syntax. Let them look at a lot of other (good) English, selected carefully by you to be similar to what they were trying to do in their fourth class, to show them what it's supposed to be like. Let them explore that with your limited guidance, and get to understand it, and then, and only then, have them drop in again on what they produced for you in their fourth class. Let them discover what errors they made; let them explain what's wrong and why, and propose improvements. Even if they don't catch all their errors, they will learn a great deal, and what is much more important, keep their youthful enthusiasm for English. You have a terrific chance to save them from "dull English stagnation", typically caused by well meaning but misguided teachers. Lucky you!!!

Larry Latham

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:42 am

Larry, your suggested approach is a nice idea!

What if the "cute wannabes" sense there is an ulterior motive in presenting "other (good) English, selected carefully by you to be similar to what they were trying to do in their fourth class, to show them what it's supposed to be like", though, and possibly take exception to the correction/implicit criticism (which will become even more apparent if the stuff from their fourth class is given back to them for they themselves to correct or notice the discrepancies (errors?) in, between the "good" and "bad" English), especially if they have other things they'd prefer to be "getting on with" than what teacher wants them to (re)do (at some point!)).

That is, maybe these kids will respond best if they are left to notice what's really what in ever-new and exciting things (and past tense, and modals are so useful that they will be bound to occur and/or be needed many many times in the future)...there will probably (hopefully?) come a point when the kids themselves realize they can't do it all by themselves, and turn to teacher for guidance (but I don't know how long that will take them to realize, because they have some knowledge of English already). Maybe you should ask them to do something "impossible", Miz!

If you are a great believer in natural learning processes/"acquisition" (and reckon there is enough time for them to work), you could even be super-wildly optimistic and imagine that the students might not even need your help in somehow miraculously get to the point where they can do what they couldn't before!

What kind of school are you teaching in, Miz, and how much time do you have available (to be laid back and easy-going about things, vs. a whip-cracking slave-driver. A caring AND responsible (accountable?) teacher will obviously need to have a bit of both traits in them!)?

Hope that doesn't sound too laissez-faire, but "killing enthusiasm" (and how to (re)kindle it) is obviously a big concern here, and we can't ever really resort to saying "trust me" or "you need to do this" with ("these"!) kids!

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:36 pm

You do raise some good issues here, Duncan, particularly with the notion that Milena may teach in a school where she might not have the freedom to call her own shots.

I hope, however, that she does have at least some latitude in her classroom. It sounds, from her original post, as though she does.

As for the students detecting some 'ulterior' motive in studying good English, I believe that Milena can handle the situation so as to ensure a good outcome. If an insensitive teacher were to say, "Here's what your sentences should have been like!", well, what can I say except that he should perhaps try to find another line of work. But that needn't be done, obviously. There is no devious plot, here, to criticize the students in some roundabout way. The object is to learn some English. Along the way, students are going to have to try it out on their own sometimes. Milena has already given them a great opportunity to do that. Her students already know their work is probably not perfect, but Milena can let them discover what's wrong with it themselves. It may take a while, as you have pointed out, Duncan, and Milena will have to determine for herself how much time she can devote to exploration of her selected English. She may ask students to tear it apart, to analyze it for the purpose of noticing what kind of words come at which places in the sentences. That adjectives come in front of the nouns they describe, for example. That subjects come at the beginning, verbs at the middle, and complements come at the ends of sentences. That prepositional phrases can serve as objects, but that they have other uses as well. How deeply the students get into this kind of analysis depends on many factors in the classroom, but this kind of thing is, as has been so memorably put by Dr. Edward Vavra, of Pennsylvania Technical College in the United States, "a liberating art". It may be several weeks before Milena brings the students back to their work from their fourth class. Such a revisit now becomes not so much a criticism of what they did, but more of a "what do you think you might do with this now that you know so much more?"

Larry Latham

Miz · Post by **Miz** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:35 am

It`s just so great to read from you

Thanks Roger, Larry and Duncan.

Well, I work at an english school that deals with the communicative approach. To tell you the truth, I don`t have much time, at least not so much as I wanted to have. But there`s always some time left to do some extra activity, since the textbook is way too simple (for real beginners).

I can`t be online all the time, and I`m sorry I just saw the messages now. My life has been focused on college, plannings, classes. From Monday to Saturday. On Sundays I`m nobody. So, after that fourth class, I talked to my students and told them I was very happy with their effort. I dind`t give any of their works back and just told them I would give them the opportunity to correct their errors throughout the year (yeah, I`ve been told I will teach them till the end of the year. Great!). They really liked this idea. The classes are working fine and I`m learning a lot about them, and trying harder and harder to make the classes suitable to them. I love challenges - I had never taught such young students before.

Be sure that the last thing I want is to kill their enthusiasm, Larry!

Well, the lab is about to close, so I have to hurry up. But I`ll be back soon to write more about your posts. There`s so much to discuss =)

best wishes,

Milena