I have learned nine languages and am working on my tenth. I feel that a great deal of what I have read about language learning is overly complicated and of greater benefit to teachers than to learners.
tests to determine learners starting levels are not necessary
instruction in grammar is overdone
classrooms are inefficient
distinctions between academic, spoken and written English are not helpful
most textbooks are boring and ineffcient
I could go on
All that is needed is content that is interesting and so varied that learners can find what interests them..and a chance to speak and write (for correction). Modern technolgoy makes it possible to learn from any content and for the learner to automatically grade any content to his or her needs.
The role of the teacher is to convert the learner from a passive object into a motivated learner. If that is not done the learner will not learn. If that is done the teacher has done his/her job and need just continue to provide some feedback, the odd explanation on request and continued encouragement and stimulus.
This is all a little overstated and refers primarily to adults but is there anyone out there who can agree with any of this? Or is the entire world wide ESL community just one big self-gratification and job protection conspiracy?
ESL is overly complicated
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Yes.
Good morning.
Yes, Zhuangzi, I agree with you.
Speaking about adult classes then,
"tests to determine learners starting levels are not necessary" and most adult learners complain that they don't understand why they were asked to take that level test when, once in class, they find that there are at least two different levels being addressed by the teacher. And yet, in the current structure of the offering of adult classes, there are always administrators who consider these level-placement tests to be an important ticket to attendance. Oh, well, there are always firey hoops one has to jump through, have to try to not get burned.
"instruction in grammar is overdone", not only overdone, but at time done in a slovenly fashion, with the student passively listening and taking notes, and with hardly any practical application of the grammar on hand with the lips.
"classrooms are inefficient", the administration insists that each student have 1.5 square meters of space, with a chair and a table to spread the papers onto, with clear view of the board. When the table is removed, when the chairs are placed in an irregular line, when the board is not used, the administration becomes nervous, though the students benefit through not having that table to lean on, to hide behind. Books become the principle props and realea becomes "all that junk you asked me to buy you another shelf unit to store do you really use it?"
"distinctions between academic, spoken and written English are not helpful " depends on the objectives of the students, but in the end, all of them will speak with an accent, all of them will spend years confusing the three, perhaps it's best just to get on with the task of learning with these distinctions remaining an interesting side-bar but hardly ever a main focus.
"most textbooks are boring and ineffcient" if followed to the letter and full stop. Most textbooks are disperse and do not offer enough practice material. Most textbooks are trying to be comprehensive without the needed focus (and practice material) on the most basic of the basic. Most textbooks build the house roof-down. Most textbooks contribute to the wreckless killing of trees with fun graphics, photographs, colored side-bars etc....there are fun textbooks, but they are not always efficient. There are more efficient textbooks but they are only as fun as the teacher is able to make them. A textbook can offer a sylabic guidline to follow but oughtn't to become a bible in the learning process.
"The role of the teacher is to convert the learner from a passive object into a motivated learner.", yes, that is one of the roles of the teacher, in my case it is specifically what they pay me to do, other teachers are paid to bore the students to death with the textbook and the grammar and the fill-in-the-blank exercises. The students I share with other teachers are careful to come to my classes and on time, while they often don't even bother to come to the team-mate's class or come horribly late, complaining that it's hard to get motivated to come to class when the class is hardly motivating.
It's taken me three years to get these concepts through to the administration that I work for and fortunately they generally leave me to my own devices, since the students always evaluate my classes favorably. And yet, the administration is slow in sacking those teachers who are doing what is expected in an ESL class, probably because it is still expected. What I do is unexpected, perhaps that contributes as much as my personality and style to making my classes preferable over those other classes. And yet I won't be opening my own school, that would make me an administrator, and having already been one on several occasions, I know that is a dangerous transformation for any teacher to undertake.
peace,
revel.
Yes, Zhuangzi, I agree with you.
Speaking about adult classes then,
"tests to determine learners starting levels are not necessary" and most adult learners complain that they don't understand why they were asked to take that level test when, once in class, they find that there are at least two different levels being addressed by the teacher. And yet, in the current structure of the offering of adult classes, there are always administrators who consider these level-placement tests to be an important ticket to attendance. Oh, well, there are always firey hoops one has to jump through, have to try to not get burned.
"instruction in grammar is overdone", not only overdone, but at time done in a slovenly fashion, with the student passively listening and taking notes, and with hardly any practical application of the grammar on hand with the lips.
"classrooms are inefficient", the administration insists that each student have 1.5 square meters of space, with a chair and a table to spread the papers onto, with clear view of the board. When the table is removed, when the chairs are placed in an irregular line, when the board is not used, the administration becomes nervous, though the students benefit through not having that table to lean on, to hide behind. Books become the principle props and realea becomes "all that junk you asked me to buy you another shelf unit to store do you really use it?"
"distinctions between academic, spoken and written English are not helpful " depends on the objectives of the students, but in the end, all of them will speak with an accent, all of them will spend years confusing the three, perhaps it's best just to get on with the task of learning with these distinctions remaining an interesting side-bar but hardly ever a main focus.
"most textbooks are boring and ineffcient" if followed to the letter and full stop. Most textbooks are disperse and do not offer enough practice material. Most textbooks are trying to be comprehensive without the needed focus (and practice material) on the most basic of the basic. Most textbooks build the house roof-down. Most textbooks contribute to the wreckless killing of trees with fun graphics, photographs, colored side-bars etc....there are fun textbooks, but they are not always efficient. There are more efficient textbooks but they are only as fun as the teacher is able to make them. A textbook can offer a sylabic guidline to follow but oughtn't to become a bible in the learning process.
"The role of the teacher is to convert the learner from a passive object into a motivated learner.", yes, that is one of the roles of the teacher, in my case it is specifically what they pay me to do, other teachers are paid to bore the students to death with the textbook and the grammar and the fill-in-the-blank exercises. The students I share with other teachers are careful to come to my classes and on time, while they often don't even bother to come to the team-mate's class or come horribly late, complaining that it's hard to get motivated to come to class when the class is hardly motivating.
It's taken me three years to get these concepts through to the administration that I work for and fortunately they generally leave me to my own devices, since the students always evaluate my classes favorably. And yet, the administration is slow in sacking those teachers who are doing what is expected in an ESL class, probably because it is still expected. What I do is unexpected, perhaps that contributes as much as my personality and style to making my classes preferable over those other classes. And yet I won't be opening my own school, that would make me an administrator, and having already been one on several occasions, I know that is a dangerous transformation for any teacher to undertake.
peace,
revel.
Thank you for the detailed reply
I appreciated your reply Revel. Where do you teach? You can find out more about me and my thoughts about language learning on my blog. I would be interested in any views you may have on what I have to say.
"Man does not belong to his language or to his race, he belongs to himself alone, for he is a free being, a moral being." Ernest Renan, Sorbonne 1881
http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_learn_english_and_/
"Man does not belong to his language or to his race, he belongs to himself alone, for he is a free being, a moral being." Ernest Renan, Sorbonne 1881
http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_learn_english_and_/
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fluffyhamster
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In a 1-2-1 context, such as you are offering online, okay, such tests aren't necessary. But for a class, they are necessary, not because a teacher could not in principle cope, or more advanced students would necessarily mind listening to less stimulating chat between a teacher and the less able students (I've had classes like this and usually they go fine, or at least as well as can be expected), but because the lower-level students perhaps would probably not be able to keep up with language way above their level; that is, students below a "certain" level (I'm not sure I could exactly yet formulate it in functional or whatever terms!), who know very little, should really be in a class of their own.Zhuangzi wrote:tests to determine learners starting levels are not necessary
Above this point of "knowing enough" to get by, ask questions, acquire and improve, differences in level are of course much more arbitrary, and the primary distinction is ultimately just between knowing "something(s)" and knowing "enough" (enough to consider an end to the expense of formal instruction?).
(I believe it was Michael Lewis who made me aware of the something/not enough and enough (or something like that) distinction).
Explicit instruction is often overdone and probably ultimately unnecessary, but knowing some terminology can be useful for more advanced students referring to dictionaries; exercise books must be popular with students for a reason; and a knowledge of grammar (actually, I prefer the term lexicogrammar) does help also the teacher, to ensure that important aspects of the language are being at least implicitly addressed and covered.instruction in grammar is overdone
That is, the problem with purely incidental learning is that if no sophisticated analysis is ever carried out (by somebody with an explicit knowledge of grammar and linguistics generally) to determine exactly what the "interesting and varied" texts do and don't actually contain, linguistically, or the language that is likely to be stimulated by those texts (i.e. the topics/topical language that will probably be picked up on, the generally envisaged direction of the discussion that follows on from those topics e.g. subtopics, arguments etc), potential difficulties will remain regarding the ease with which a teacher can fill any unforseen gaps when they suddenly and unexpectedly become apparent, and in the student's future ability (once the course is over) to succeed as well as they might have otherwise in just such a variety of "unforseen language" situations.
A further advantage of a more "complete" course (possibly using e.g. "concentrated", example-wise, coursebooks such as COBUILD's previous English Course) is that it will provide a rich range of more concrete options, directions and realizable goals, all of which will undoubtedly motivate a student to remain studying with the teacher even after all the essential lexicogrammar has been covered (at this point the student will probably realize they are managing to say and feel capable of saying almost anything!).
Classrooms are as inefficient as the teachers want to make them, and changing to 1-2-1 is no guarantee of efficiency on the part of the teacher.classrooms are inefficient
There are actually some advantages to being in a class (especially if it is a multilingual one) that you just don't get in 1-2-1.
But yes, personally I would be pretty wary of joining a language class and would try to find a good private teacher instead. I'd study the language somewhat beyond a beginner level first (e.g. complete a basic self-study course) so I could at least have some idea of what was being said in any trial lessons that might be being offered.
I suppose if I were that serious, I'd consider a postgraduate or immersion programme. If those were prohibitively expensive my last choices would be community college/adult education-style evening classes and, as a last resort, a language school. But hey, who knows, some language schools might actually be okay (that is, have okay teachers, at least ones better than me anyway LOL).
These distinctions are actually, if you would prefer to be studying spoken English than writing research papers on subatomic physics or whatever aspect of Shakespeare.distinctions between academic, spoken and written English are not helpful
But sure, some e.g. science e.g. writers adopt a pretty conversational tone in their writing, and a spoken course that presumed people didn't want to or couldn't ever really talk about complex or academic, higher matters to some degree at least would obviously be being unambitious.I don't know, there must be some good ones out there (perhaps we could try to name a few). There are a few books that spring to mind, but they aren't really comprehensive enough to act as general courses and can therefore only really play supplementary roles. I suppose it also depends on what your definition of "boring" is. I have a Chinese self-study textbook that doesn't have a single illustration, and strange-looking/offputting expansion drills at the end of each unit, but it is actually one of the most succinct and fun/funny, quirky (that is, for a textbook) little tomes I have ever come across (the expansion drills I now know are actually "backchaining" ones, these can be - and were - quite useful in helping with longer sentences). The imagination and "daring" shown in a writer's selection of examples might not be acceptable to some (in this PC world of ours), but for those who'd learn a language better if the text even remotely resembled "life as we know it", these are "issues" that any writer should perhaps consider including in a coursebook. I think ESL students would love it if foreign teachers of English in their home countries wrote a similar book (and who knows, perhaps similar books do exist!).most textbooks are boring and ineffcient
At the end of the day, though, yes, most textbooks, especially ESL ones, are so earnest, dull, patronizing and unambitious (or, at the other extreme, too zanily slangy etc, without ever becoming serious about explaining the everyday language, or indeed even the truly "darker" things in life) that it is difficult to come up with any overwhelming recommendations.
Go on, then!I could go on
I didn't quite understand that, could you perhaps expand on it?Modern technolgoy makes it possible...for the learner to automatically grade any content to his or her needs.
See my comments about "grammar", above. It needn't be explicitly taught, but the teacher should be trying to ensure that all the necessary vocabulary and frequent patternings (phrases, lexicogrammar rather than just too plain slot-and-fill structure) is getting a look-in.The role of the teacher is to convert the learner from a passive object into a motivated learner. If that is not done the learner will not learn. If that is done the teacher has done his/her job and need just continue to provide some feedback, the odd explanation on request and continued encouragement and stimulus.
'The ESL world' is a construct unique to each individual teacher, comprizing the sum of their education, and major, training, reading, experience, where they presently live, relations within that community (how English and English people are viewed by it if it is the teacher lives in a foreign country, or how ESL is viewed as a career if the teacher lives in an English-speaking country), their present job with all that entails (students, classes, duties, coleagues, bosses etc), prospects, external contacts, interest in "feeder" disciplines etc etc. I think my ESL world has improved through joining and participating in Dave's, at least.This is all a little overstated and refers primarily to adults but is there anyone out there who can agree with any of this? Or is the entire world wide ESL community just one big self-gratification and job protection conspiracy?
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woodcutter
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Zhuangzi (or are you a butterfly?) I like the word efficiency. I agree, not enough attention paid to that.
Plenty of attention, however, is made to making lessons fun. Yet many people, like you, are unsatisfied with the results. In my opinion, what people find to be fun is so immensely varied that you cannot hope to find any system which is liked by all. We should either make more effort in giving people a chance to choose a method of study that stimulates them, or we should pay a little less attention to fun, and more to learning.
Plenty of attention, however, is made to making lessons fun. Yet many people, like you, are unsatisfied with the results. In my opinion, what people find to be fun is so immensely varied that you cannot hope to find any system which is liked by all. We should either make more effort in giving people a chance to choose a method of study that stimulates them, or we should pay a little less attention to fun, and more to learning.
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fluffyhamster
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Ah, there you go, focusing on that word 'efficiency', again, woodcutter, as if anyone who says 'Classrooms are inefficient/not serious enough/too much fun etc' has necessarily found the secret of efficiency (which does not involve "classrooms" directly, in the sense of not having actual door, window, blackboard, chairs etc).
But you don't seem to be agreeing with Zhuangzi (aren't you more echoing me?) when you go on to say:
Of course, beyond the low to intermediate levels (which are, I think, a "reality"), what "ESL" can offer is not always very clear, and the learner is probably going to need to assume greater responsibility for their learning, and/or sign up to things such as The Linguist (I am not sure what the "entry level" of The Linguist is, but just because Zhuangzi doesn't believe in levels doesn't guarantee that any learner would find everything on offer a doddle), hence the "easier" just now, but there is no reason to believe that "ESL" cannot continue to offer guidance for such increasingly "independent" learners "itself", if you accept that there is actually some know-how to be found somewhere in all the ESL, AL and linguistics proper that many of us "senselessly" burden ourselves with.
(I believe that a thorough spoken course would guide students through pretty much all but the most specialized/technical language, muster it all in example sentences or shortish/shorter texts, that would be more obviously useful in any conversation stemming from rather than only indirectly "based" upon those examples. Anything that couldn't be directly used in speech without sounding out-of-register or needing major changes would be included in a supplementary reader/audio "reader" of short texts and sentences, arranged according to subject area).
I've had a reasonably good look through The Linguist website, and found something that I feel is a little glib:
http://www.thelinguist.com/jive3/thread ... 1&tstart=0
A poster named "asad1000" goes on to ask a certain "SteveK"
,
I kicked off a thread recently that will go on to look at whether dictionaries 'will not give you the necessary context' (as opposed to there, concordances; here, full texts, "real" contexts; and, for the sake of argument, wherever in textbook-based courses). I myself feel that short examples, recontextualized and/or imagined as well and as fully as possible, might in fact be enough to "do the trick".
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... php?t=2711
Then, there are things that are just plain silly:
All teachers correct - it isn't unique at all, even if you call it a "Phrase suggestion system".
Of course, there is much to agree with, for example:
http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_lea ... learn.html
Even so, the general impression one gets is that nobody (and certainly not ESL teachers) could possibly be familiar with such (or similar) research findings.
But you don't seem to be agreeing with Zhuangzi (aren't you more echoing me?) when you go on to say:
to which we might contrast Zhuangzi's:what people find to be fun is so immensely varied that you cannot hope to find any system which is liked by all. We should either make more effort in giving people a chance to choose a method of study that stimulates them, or we should pay a little less attention to fun, and more to learning
Zhuangzi seems to be saying that the ease of learning from a text is in direct relation to its intrinsic interest or value level, irrespective of its linguistic complexity, and that all a learner needs is motivation to (eventually) understand it. Well, I hate to tell anyone this, but unfortunately learners can become what is known as "discouraged" if the materials are assuming too much, and the teacher not helping as much as he or she perhaps could. That is, I suspect that an "easier" basis of some kind is actually needed, and this is where ESL/AL has a contribution to make; I would warrant that learners, "initially" at least, have "fun" when they can understand better.All that is needed is content that is interesting and so varied that learners can find what interests them..and a chance to speak and write (for correction).....The role of the teacher is to convert the learner from a passive object into a motivated learner. If that is not done the learner will not learn. If that is done the teacher has done his/her job and need just continue to provide some feedback, the odd explanation on request and continued encouragement and stimulus
Of course, beyond the low to intermediate levels (which are, I think, a "reality"), what "ESL" can offer is not always very clear, and the learner is probably going to need to assume greater responsibility for their learning, and/or sign up to things such as The Linguist (I am not sure what the "entry level" of The Linguist is, but just because Zhuangzi doesn't believe in levels doesn't guarantee that any learner would find everything on offer a doddle), hence the "easier" just now, but there is no reason to believe that "ESL" cannot continue to offer guidance for such increasingly "independent" learners "itself", if you accept that there is actually some know-how to be found somewhere in all the ESL, AL and linguistics proper that many of us "senselessly" burden ourselves with.
(I believe that a thorough spoken course would guide students through pretty much all but the most specialized/technical language, muster it all in example sentences or shortish/shorter texts, that would be more obviously useful in any conversation stemming from rather than only indirectly "based" upon those examples. Anything that couldn't be directly used in speech without sounding out-of-register or needing major changes would be included in a supplementary reader/audio "reader" of short texts and sentences, arranged according to subject area).
I've had a reasonably good look through The Linguist website, and found something that I feel is a little glib:
http://www.thelinguist.com/jive3/thread ... 1&tstart=0
A poster named "asad1000" goes on to ask a certain "SteveK"
,"SteveK" goes on to assure us that (my bold):I get the idea of your message. I'll be more observant in terms of collecting phrases while reading authentic context. On the other hand, I'd like to know that it is okay to learn phrases direct from a good dictionary e.g collins cobuild dic without reading authentic context.
(My brackets also).(Learn words and phrases from meaningful content). You have to learn in a context not from a dictionary. The dictionary will not give you the necessary context. Spend your time reading and listening and observing the language. The time spent on the dictionary is less effective and generally less interesting. Go for content on subjects that interest you.
I kicked off a thread recently that will go on to look at whether dictionaries 'will not give you the necessary context' (as opposed to there, concordances; here, full texts, "real" contexts; and, for the sake of argument, wherever in textbook-based courses). I myself feel that short examples, recontextualized and/or imagined as well and as fully as possible, might in fact be enough to "do the trick".
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... php?t=2711
Then, there are things that are just plain silly:
http://www.thelinguist.com/front/course ... cale=en_CA*Phrase suggestion system
Using our unique phrase suggestion system your tutor will replace your incorrect or unnatural sounding phrases with phrases a native speaker uses. Learning these phrases is the best way to achieve natural and fluent English.
All teachers correct - it isn't unique at all, even if you call it a "Phrase suggestion system".
Of course, there is much to agree with, for example:
http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_lea ... learn.html
Even so, the general impression one gets is that nobody (and certainly not ESL teachers) could possibly be familiar with such (or similar) research findings.
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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woodcutter
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Since Zhuangzi attacks the current classroom methodology on so many levels, and seems to think that there is some utterly new Zhuangzi led revolution that ought to happen, who could agree with everything?
I don't suppose that anything efficient is really being put forward here. I don't really understand, but the thrust seems to be that the teacher simply has to "motivate" the students and then get out of the way. There is something to that, since Z has learned so many tongues he/she must know that teachers are not necessary most of the time. However, since most students are not study machines, they want a teacher. The "motivation" is very, very hard to do.
I don't suppose that anything efficient is really being put forward here. I don't really understand, but the thrust seems to be that the teacher simply has to "motivate" the students and then get out of the way. There is something to that, since Z has learned so many tongues he/she must know that teachers are not necessary most of the time. However, since most students are not study machines, they want a teacher. The "motivation" is very, very hard to do.
I agree
As a teacher I also agree that books are written more for teachers than learners. More attention needs to be paid to what students can and need to learn at each level.
Another way to look at it is that the texts tend to get too difficult, too fast. They need to give the students sufficient time to practice and and acquire the language structures before moving on to something new. This is especially true for grammar--we could move a lot slower than most of the textbooks seem to want us to.
When I studied Spanish, this was not a problem. We spent a the whole first year on present tense. At the end of it, I could hold up my end of a basic, social conversation. I don't know why the English texts are not written more in this way, but would very much like to see us take up the trend.
Another way to look at it is that the texts tend to get too difficult, too fast. They need to give the students sufficient time to practice and and acquire the language structures before moving on to something new. This is especially true for grammar--we could move a lot slower than most of the textbooks seem to want us to.
When I studied Spanish, this was not a problem. We spent a the whole first year on present tense. At the end of it, I could hold up my end of a basic, social conversation. I don't know why the English texts are not written more in this way, but would very much like to see us take up the trend.
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fluffyhamster
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Re: I agree
That's interesting. Michael Lewis has stressed the need for more time to be spent on the two tenses in English. Were your lessons anything like a "lexical approach", then, Tara? I'm also imagining that the teacher sometimes had to supply other forms than the present tense, but that they did not become the focus. How did the other learners respond to all this (or, for that matter, you, at the time? Were you at high school? College? A language school?).Tara B wrote:When I studied Spanish, this was not a problem. We spent a the whole first year on present tense. At the end of it, I could hold up my end of a basic, social conversation. I don't know why the English texts are not written more in this way, but would very much like to see us take up the trend.
zhuangzi:
you boasted you learnt 9 languages and are now into your tenth; would you care to elaborate on how well you acquired these lingos? There are many out here that speak several languages - including myself - and that still arrive at views that in parts are opposite to yours.
You claim, for instance, that "grammar is overdone". Really? Are you implying that your students knew grammar better than vocabulary? How can they acquire new vocabulary without differentiating between adjectives and nouns, verbs and adverbs? I for one disagree vehemently with the superstition that grammar is over-taught. I do agree, however, that the way it sometimes is taught is unhelpful. A case in point: China.
And, you give the duties of an EFL teacher - note: I am mentioning EFL teachers, while the situation of ESL teachers might give me even more reasons to disagree with you! - much space, one might say: too much space.
Perhaps students could do a lot more by being better motivated in the first place, without depending on the teacher to motivate them? Surely if you feel like seeing a doctor you must know what drives you there, and not take a chance visiting him? Why on Earth do TEFLers always think of their students as "customers" rather than "patients"? A student is a patient because his subject needs fixing. He must be the first to suffer, and know why he suffers, so he knows what he is expecting from the doctor or teacher. Of course, public education institutions that neither make profits nor give the students any choice don't motivate their students well. Your child goes to school in spite of himself. His parents probably heap too much of their own hope on him. He is a totally demotivated participant in a game that supposedly makes a useful member of the society of grown-ups. Does he want to join them???
Lastly, your bitter remarks about textbooks... a very subjective opinion that bears no serious discussion. Again, I disagree... though I understand your point of view to a certain extent: some books just don't fit the bill. Others are too complicated because you have to fiddle with a tape-recorder, playing those tapes back and forth; others come with videos... I think, very few books are utterly uninspiring or useless; it's up to the teacher to use them productively. He certainly does not have to follow them to the dot on the 'i'. He can vary the contents, focus on the students' needs and their weaknesses etc. The problem mainly are the students themselves: too easily bored because too inured to getting instant gratification from watching TV.
you boasted you learnt 9 languages and are now into your tenth; would you care to elaborate on how well you acquired these lingos? There are many out here that speak several languages - including myself - and that still arrive at views that in parts are opposite to yours.
You claim, for instance, that "grammar is overdone". Really? Are you implying that your students knew grammar better than vocabulary? How can they acquire new vocabulary without differentiating between adjectives and nouns, verbs and adverbs? I for one disagree vehemently with the superstition that grammar is over-taught. I do agree, however, that the way it sometimes is taught is unhelpful. A case in point: China.
And, you give the duties of an EFL teacher - note: I am mentioning EFL teachers, while the situation of ESL teachers might give me even more reasons to disagree with you! - much space, one might say: too much space.
Perhaps students could do a lot more by being better motivated in the first place, without depending on the teacher to motivate them? Surely if you feel like seeing a doctor you must know what drives you there, and not take a chance visiting him? Why on Earth do TEFLers always think of their students as "customers" rather than "patients"? A student is a patient because his subject needs fixing. He must be the first to suffer, and know why he suffers, so he knows what he is expecting from the doctor or teacher. Of course, public education institutions that neither make profits nor give the students any choice don't motivate their students well. Your child goes to school in spite of himself. His parents probably heap too much of their own hope on him. He is a totally demotivated participant in a game that supposedly makes a useful member of the society of grown-ups. Does he want to join them???
Lastly, your bitter remarks about textbooks... a very subjective opinion that bears no serious discussion. Again, I disagree... though I understand your point of view to a certain extent: some books just don't fit the bill. Others are too complicated because you have to fiddle with a tape-recorder, playing those tapes back and forth; others come with videos... I think, very few books are utterly uninspiring or useless; it's up to the teacher to use them productively. He certainly does not have to follow them to the dot on the 'i'. He can vary the contents, focus on the students' needs and their weaknesses etc. The problem mainly are the students themselves: too easily bored because too inured to getting instant gratification from watching TV.
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fluffyhamster
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- Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
Roger, if you click on the link that Zhuangzi provided, you'll see some LINGUIST LINKS on the right-hand side. If you then follow the first of those ('Learn to speak and write fluent English at thelinguist.com'), you'll be able to hear Steve Kaufmann "speaking" those nine languages at THE METHOD, and the SUPPORT bit's 'Steve's tips'.Roger wrote:zhuangzi:
you boasted you learnt 9 languages and are now into your tenth; would you care to elaborate on how well you acquired these lingos?
Probably anyone who isn't a native speaker of the languages listed would hesitate to judge Steve K's level (insecurity concerning our own level etc), but since I only speak very basic Japanese and fair to middling Mandarin Chinese, I have no objection to being the first to stick my neck out by saying that it seem obvious that the guy does speak those languages to more than a basic or "faking it" level. Sure, it's all semi-scripted and rehearsed, edited etc but give the guy some credit!
Of course, if you are amazingly fluent/truly bilingual you might find things to quibble with, but I doubt if there are many of us who are actually in that sort of position...probably because we've got our noses stuck in ENGLISH books the whole time!!!
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fluffyhamster
- Posts: 3031
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:57 pm
- Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
Hmm.fluffyhamster wrote:Roger, if you click on the link that Zhuangzi provided, you'll see some LINGUIST LINKS on the right-hand side. If you then follow the first of those ('Learn to speak and write fluent English at thelinguist.com'), you'll be able to hear Steve Kaufmann "speaking" those nine languages at THE METHOD, and the SUPPORT bit's 'Steve's tips'.Roger wrote:zhuangzi:
you boasted you learnt 9 languages and are now into your tenth; would you care to elaborate on how well you acquired these lingos?
The actual The Linguist links have disappeared from SK's blog. 
But not to worry, hamsters are known for their hoarding habits, and this fluffy one at least luckily saved and can therefore re-supply the necessary links:
http://www.thelinguist.com/
Still, anyone with half a brain could've worked out that URL from SK's blog.
Unfortunately (and more importantly) the SUPPORT bit's 'Steve's tips' really don't seem to be available on the (substantially) redesigned thelinguist.com link, but can still be found at one of The Hamster's hoarded haunts:
http://www.thelinguist.com/front/suppor ... ?locale=en
I noticed that SK has been reading quite a few CUP books on vocabulary and vocabulary acquisition:
http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_lea ... cabul.html
Just a little niggle: Jack Richards didn't write Vocabulary in Language Teaching, Norbert Schmitt did. Richards is the Cambridge Language Education Series's editor, and supplied a preface. Nevertheless, great books, essential reads.
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fluffyhamster
- Posts: 3031
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:57 pm
- Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
http://thelinguist.blogs.com/how_to_lea ... _word.html
There is probably little or no reference to 'the power of audio in combination with reading' because very little of what is printed is actually then ever made available in audio format (for example, "academic" books on vocabulary acquisition aren't usually made into audio books, read by famous actors ). Of course, speech e.g. radio show interviews, is often transcribed, and some media e.g. movie screenplays, blur the line between the spoken and written word in terms of style and available format (and in Japan, bilingual versions of the screenplays of popular movies seem quite popular). But I doubt if any of these academics would deny that being able to hear unknown words would be helpful. (Some of them do mention the potential of CD ROMs at least to vastly increase the content/size/learning potential of learner dictionaries e.g. more extensive examples/contexts could be supplied, with supplementary recordings; there wouldn't need to be the division between dictionary and encyclopedia due to space limitations etc).
Hmm, if a learner is always choosing content that is not only of interest but familiar too, obviously there won't be a problem - but how will the content/input be familiar if it is genuinely new to the learner? Obviously, being able to hear and read or read and hear side by side, as The Linguist's library allows, will help the learner understand those texts, but what of the many print-only texts out there in the real world beyond? (This is where The Linguist's 'Instant word definitions and translations' might be handy, if by that it means there are online dictionaries available that cover much more than the Library's texts. Presumably this is so...but such resources are also available elsewhere!).
I feel (applied) linguistics does have a contribution to make here - establishing what has a high "surrender value", and teaching it in a more bottom-up way, precisely so that so-called "top-down" approaches to reading will stand a greater chance of success (and I feel that non-native readers especially will never be able to gain more than the vaguest of understandings - title, beginning paragraph, end paragraph! - with anything less than a "word by/then word i.e. word > word > word" reading of a text or information/summary-rich part of a text, the latter of which may require a very high level of concentration e.g. abstracts of academic papers).
Nice rhetorical questions there.In all of these books there was no reference to the power of audio in combination with reading. In other words you can remember words better if you also hear them. Furthermore it is the combination of audio, reading and deliberate study of words that will help the learner to increase vocabulary the fastest.
Nowhere in these books on vocabulary was there mention of e-text. It is postulated by Nation and others that a person needs to read text with at least 95% known words in order to be able to read comfortably and infer the meaning of the missing words. But what if the learner can choose what to read so that the content is of interest and familiar? What if an audio file of the content is available?
And finally what if instant explanation and translation of any new word is available via an on line dictionary? What if new words and phrases are automatically stored in a data base for future study?
There is probably little or no reference to 'the power of audio in combination with reading' because very little of what is printed is actually then ever made available in audio format (for example, "academic" books on vocabulary acquisition aren't usually made into audio books, read by famous actors
). Of course, speech e.g. radio show interviews, is often transcribed, and some media e.g. movie screenplays, blur the line between the spoken and written word in terms of style and available format (and in Japan, bilingual versions of the screenplays of popular movies seem quite popular). But I doubt if any of these academics would deny that being able to hear unknown words would be helpful. (Some of them do mention the potential of CD ROMs at least to vastly increase the content/size/learning potential of learner dictionaries e.g. more extensive examples/contexts could be supplied, with supplementary recordings; there wouldn't need to be the division between dictionary and encyclopedia due to space limitations etc).Hmm, if a learner is always choosing content that is not only of interest but familiar too, obviously there won't be a problem - but how will the content/input be familiar if it is genuinely new to the learner? Obviously, being able to hear and read or read and hear side by side, as The Linguist's library allows, will help the learner understand those texts, but what of the many print-only texts out there in the real world beyond? (This is where The Linguist's 'Instant word definitions and translations' might be handy, if by that it means there are online dictionaries available that cover much more than the Library's texts. Presumably this is so...but such resources are also available elsewhere!).
I feel (applied) linguistics does have a contribution to make here - establishing what has a high "surrender value", and teaching it in a more bottom-up way, precisely so that so-called "top-down" approaches to reading will stand a greater chance of success (and I feel that non-native readers especially will never be able to gain more than the vaguest of understandings - title, beginning paragraph, end paragraph! - with anything less than a "word by/then word i.e. word > word > word" reading of a text or information/summary-rich part of a text, the latter of which may require a very high level of concentration e.g. abstracts of academic papers).
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fluffyhamster
- Posts: 3031
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:57 pm
- Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
Glad to see the "Writing" option and some online discussion/contact has been added to the Basic membership, Steve (I don't recall there being any discussion, and certainly there was no writing, available to Basic members before), and the mid-level membership (whatever it was called before) effectively withdrawn. Output (of an "assessable" kind) is obviously a necessary step beyond the necessary but ultimately insufficient input level, even for "basic" learners (e.g. making the sounds correctly, and knowing they are making them correctly, will help learners further improve their listening and noticing: model and learner approximation come to converge ever closer).
http://www.thelinguist.com/front/courses/comparison.jsp
http://www.thelinguist.com/front/courses/comparison.jsp
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woodcutter
- Posts: 1303
- Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:14 am
- Location: London
I read the blog, and it's full of really good things.
Look though, if a student is very highly self motivated, they are going to get the job done. Don't you worry about them, even if they never read anything by Mr. Kaufman. They will stop doing things they don't like, or things that don't work, and try another thing. As for me, I love reading the dictionary, and as to the opinion that is does not supply context, I say go read a good one again, old chap, and have a proper think about it. It may not be the absolute best way, but I like to study like that, cos the translations are right there (and I hate flapping about), and therefore I work hard at it.
When students roll into a class though, they are looking for a class, not a system.
Look though, if a student is very highly self motivated, they are going to get the job done. Don't you worry about them, even if they never read anything by Mr. Kaufman. They will stop doing things they don't like, or things that don't work, and try another thing. As for me, I love reading the dictionary, and as to the opinion that is does not supply context, I say go read a good one again, old chap, and have a proper think about it. It may not be the absolute best way, but I like to study like that, cos the translations are right there (and I hate flapping about), and therefore I work hard at it.
When students roll into a class though, they are looking for a class, not a system.