Tense In Reported Speech

[Xui]

Tense In Reported Speech

Now we have Present Prefect and Simple Past. Having learnt from grammar books, we make a remarkable effort to differentiate the two of them. What trouble me is, however, why shall we then waste such effort in the reported speech? In this speech, unfortunately, the two tenses are neutralized.

In A Grammar of Contemporary English, Quirk et al. repeat to us the clear formula of Back-shift:

Back-shift takes place when any reported matter is introduced by a reporting verb in the past tense. In these circumstances, the shift from direct to reported speech is accompanied by a back-shift of verb as follows:

present ----------------------------------------> past
past, present perfect, past perfect ----------> past perfect

According to this formula, both Mary bought a new hat and Mary has bought a new hat are back-shifted into the same form (the Past Perfect tense) in the reported speech:
Ex: John said Mary had bought a new hat.
We can hardly tell whether the resulting Past Perfect could have come from Present Perfect or the Simple Past. And usually we would not ask John exactly what tense Mary used. Or, if to differentiate these two tenses is necessary and practical, should we ask?

It seems no trouble at all for grammarians to suggest to merge reportedly two different meanings (expressed by the Present Prefect and the Simple Past) into one (expressed by the Past Perfect tense). But it always bothers me. If we tell students to set a line between the two tenses, why shouldn't we ever do so in indirect speech?

What do you think about this?

Xui
===============
I will not answer those who commanded me to leave at once, because I have my own schedule. They can play their own academic game in their own threads if they are meaningful enough.

[Duncan Powrie]

Not everybody agrees with the adequacy of the tense backshifting rules, even (or should I say, especially!) as presented by the likes of Quirk et al.

John to A: Mary('s) bought a new hat.


A, later, to B: (John said) Mary('s) bought a new hat.

? (John said) Mary had bought a new hat.

The example using past perfect sounds as if it is speech being recalled much later (perhaps in testimony in court, in recounting an exact sequence of events?!), or is reported speech as reported in a novel(!). All quite removed from the functional demands of speech (which I continue to mention because I believe it is the best thing for developing an understanding of English generally).

[Duncan Powrie]

I don't think "reporting" generally, much less reported speech, sheds much light on the difference between Present Perfect and Simple Past.

I personally suspect that the experiential aspect of Present Perfect holds the key, as do its non-uses when definite past time "reference" (even implicit), on the basis of shared background knowledge, can be assumed.

[Xui]

Another rule is down?

[Duncan Powrie]

Afraid so. Another enemy KIA.