present progressives

Seiichi MYOGA · Post by **Seiichi MYOGA** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:49 pm

How do you interpret (1)?

(1) I'm doing well since I invested in the money market.
(2) Ken is forgetting his English since he returned to Japan.

Do you think that there is a sudden change both in (1) and (2), meaning (1) shows a sudden improvement in income and that (2) indicates his sudden loss of a (good) command of English?

Thank you for your help.
Seiichi MYOGA

I had thought it was a gradual change.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:30 pm

It's hard to read that much into 1), I guess if somebody made a lot of money quickly they'd just come out and say that! ("I made a sh*tload on the stock exchange yesterday - let's celebrate!"). I personally would only go so far as to presume this person has a "steady investment", so I seem to agree with you on this one.

As for 2), it is the sort of thing that people usually say of their own language ability, and when they do say such a thing, I suppose they aren't quantifying how much they've lost, but are more saying they should get back to studying to maintain if not improve their level. Again, it would help if more was said ("I've forgotten so much/almost everything!").

When somebody else remarks on another's language, they could, of course, be being ironic, in reference to what is actually only a minor mistake; but, presuming they are being truthful rather than ironic, I guess there has been a somewhat sudden or serious loss in ability for this somebody to have noticed the change and feel the need to make a remark about it (in a perhaps concerned tone of voice?)! Here, then, is perhaps more room for conjecture or disagreement than you imagined.

Then again, the person could just be gossiping or making "lazy" conversation, much like people on Dave's are prepared to discuss the hind leg off of a dead donkey.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but it is hard to make or justify the kind of judgements you ask for without filling in a minimal context, so that everyone can agree (or disagree!) with any such judgements that are made.

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:35 pm

Seiichi MYOGA wrote:How do you interpret (1)?

(1) I'm doing well since I invested in the money market.
(2) Ken is forgetting his English since he returned to Japan.

Do you think that there is a sudden change both in (1) and (2), meaning (1) shows a sudden improvement in income and that (2) indicates his sudden loss of a (good) command of English?

Thank you for your help.
Seiichi MYOGA

I had thought it was a gradual change.

To you two questions above, Yes, and Yes. I wonder where you've got the good answers. If you want to express a gradual or steady change, use Present Perfect.

When in the past I explained the use of Present Progressive here, I used the examples you produced here as a support. I pointed out this usual phenomenon to them, but they seemed not to agree to these 'exceptional' structures, and insisted using "have been doing", or "has been forgetting", as there is since obviously.

I explained to them Present Progressive and Perfect Progressive are different. Perfect Progressive here will result in another meanings.

This is my humble opinion.

Xui

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:40 pm

Interestingly, I used Present Perfect in my post above, but I wasn't thinking so much in terms of gradual vs. sudden change, but more just in terms of a sum/overall/total/combined amount of change, a "lump quantification/generalization".

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:45 pm

Seiichi MYOGA wrote:How do you interpret (1)?

(1) I'm doing well since I invested in the money market.
(2) Ken is forgetting his English since he returned to Japan.

Do you think that there is a sudden change both in (1) and (2), meaning (1) shows a sudden improvement in income and that (2) indicates his sudden loss of a (good) command of English?

Thank you for your help.
Seiichi MYOGA

I had thought it was a gradual change.

Number 2 sounds strange to me. I guess I would use, "Ken has been forgetting his English since he returned to Japan." if it were my sentence.

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:45 pm

Seiichi MYOGA wrote: (1) I'm doing well since I invested in the money market.
(2) Ken is forgetting his English since he returned to Japan.

However, with Present Continuous this since is usually misinterpreted as, like because, telling the reason, and therefore little attention is given to the rather unusual structure.

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:52 pm

Lorikeet wrote: Number 2 sounds strange to me. I guess I would use, "Ken has been forgetting his English since he returned to Japan." if it were my sentence.

IMHO, I guess it sounds odd because merely "forget" is recommended not to be used in progressive tense.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:34 pm

Yeah, Present Perfect (Progressive) is the more natural option, but I didn't want to rule out the Present Progressive. Like I said before, quantification of the amount seems to come easily with the Present Perfect.

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:29 pm

Xui!

The "since" in these two sentences is a "time-since".

The first one is saying: I have been doing well (in the money-market specifically) from the time I first invested in the money-market.

The second one says: Ken has been (slowly!) forgetting his English from the time he returned to Japan (not because he returned to Japan, but because he is speaking Japanese a lot).

Harzer

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:40 pm

Oh yeah! Well spotted, Harzer! I didn't see the first of Shun's two posts there, I'd presumed he'd only had time to post the one immediately above mine when I wrote my previous post (which was more in reply to Lorikeet, anyhow). Pretty obvious mistake he's made there!

Seiichi MYOGA · Post by **Seiichi MYOGA** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:11 am

Thank you all for your help and comments.

If "since" in (1) and (2) is a "time-since," I think we can instead use "ever since (=continually since that time (CALD))."

Do you agree with me?

(1) I'm doing well ever since I invested in the money market.
(2) Ken is forgetting his English ever since he returned to Japan.

Seiichi MYOGA

I've been wondering whether Present Progressive is just a pro-form of Present Perfect Progressive, or they are two different constructions. And if the latter is the case, how differently they are used. But there seem to be a lot of factors to consider, so I think we need to move one step at a time.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:43 am

Seiichi MYOGA wrote:I've been wondering whether Present Progressive is just a pro-form of Present Perfect Progressive, or they are two different constructions. And if the latter is the case, how differently they are used. But there seem to be a lot of factors to consider, so I think we need to move one step at a time.

With regard to Ken's English, sure, it appears that "is forgetting" is a sort of proform of "has been forgetting" (but not everyone would agree that the former is entirely natural).

Similarly, "I'm studying Japanese" is not really that different from "I've been studying Japanese".

However, once we move beyond an implicit "now", the proform probably has to give way to the longer with phrases that mention the length of time the activity has been continuing for/since.

Ken is forgetting his English.

?Ken is forgetting his English since he came back to Japan.

Ken has been forgetting his English (since he came back to Japan)

Ken has forgotten his English (since he came back to Japan)

(Incidentally, the last two sentences above could have the meaning of "isn't studying it as a subject now", that is, "has forgotten all about studying English").

Ken has forgotten a lot of (his) English (since...)

I'm now wondering how often the Perfect Progressive appears just by itself, without any following time phrases (and with which verbs it might do so)? I feel there is a strong subconscious urge to add the time phrases to the form, otherwise, we would probably only have the Present Progressive form!

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:05 am

The lack of a comma before it, suggests 'since' should be taken as time not reason.

I see no reason for there being anything suddent here. Rather we see a progressive increase in the first persons wealth, and a progressive decline in the second person's English competency.

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:19 pm

Harzer wrote:Xui!

The "since" in these two sentences is a "time-since".

Harzer

You are very correct. I would like to say that, in my prevous thread, "misinterpreted" would be much better, rather than "interpreted". In a discussion a couple of years ago, I had found some of these examples, but they interpreted/misinterpreted the "since" as telling the reason, working like because. Fortunately, at that time I had an example from a campaign in NY titled: "What are you doing since 911?" They admitted this one was rather difficult to explain. Easy, a sudden change.

For them, they interpreted. For me, they misinterpreted.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:58 pm

Hmm, Shun, your use of the passive, and then editing your post (from "interpreted" to "misinterpreted") cannot hide the fact that you were representing that tidbit of "quality" information as an "authority"; you were wanting to be taken seriously, and must've considered your words carefully (especially as a non-native speaker).

Can't you ever just gracefully concede a point, admit defeat? At least go study a few pages in a dictionary or something?

No, I guess you can't...anyway, you never make a point that really matters, so I guess all this doesn't really matter...it's just the principle of the thing.

We should probably just continue to ignore you as best we can.

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